Bill Weintraub

Re: In Awe...

01-28-2004

Hey Jag

Thank you for your post man, it's a great post, and a LOT of guys reading it will be helped by it and will understand EXACTLY what you're saying.

I want to comment on some of what you said:

1. "still the desire for a deep bonding experience with another guy was a driving force, could not control it, was almost animalistic in nature..I felt like I was hunting for my own pack to make that connection with like minded guys..."

Jag, that's a very natural male feeling, and if you read my most recent Heroes article on the Celts, you'll see that it's common in warrior cultures to organize groups of boys and men into "packs" and for the guys to bond erotically in those packs

the Spartans did it in their warrior training, which was called the agoge, and the Celts did in their warrior training too, in the Gaesatae

2. "what I found were gay guys.... whoah I'm thinking, this is not right I'm not gay ...am I? Course whats a gay guy gonna say..."your in denial boy" you know the story, all the bs, all the excuses they have for being who they are...which is fine I have nothign against gay guys..."

right Jag -- gay men do have a lot of excuses for being who they are

and that's all they are -- excuses

and while we don't want men to be anti-gay bigots, we on this site and in the Alliance agree that there's a lot wrong with that gay male subculture and we are committed to saying so

so it's not necessary for you to be uncritical of gay men

because a lot of what mainstream gay men do deserves criticism:

specifically, anal penetration, promiscuity, and effeminacy

and the whole culture of treating men like meat and like toys should be attacked -- and that's what we do

3. "maybe as a teen I had the whole homophobe thing going but mre than likely that was to either follow the crowd or just plain ignorance...or both really. So gay straight, bi doesn't matter to me, if you are a masculine guy that is...I can not stand or tolerate the effeminate guys, nothing personal against them I just don't understand them and why they would abandon their masculinity, something I am proud of and could and would never shirk away from..it boggles my mind"

right -- it does boggle the mind

gay men abandon their masculinity as part of their acculturation into gay male subculture, which encourages them to be effeminate, and which also encourages them to be receptive anally as they first enter the subculture

that's why when you visit a big gay dating site, you'll see that many -- not all -- but many of the younger men -- late teens, early 20s --define themselves as bottoms

that's really fucked up, but that's the way it works

so, just as when you entered the Marines, you experienced pressure from your DI and your fellow Marines to conform to that new culture, so when gay men "come out" and enter gay culture, they are pressured to get fucked and to accept effeminacy

again, on this site we do not accept that that is in any way healthy for those men, and we are doing all we can to destroy that subculture and those subcultural expectations that gay men should be penetrated anally, be promiscuous, and be effeminate

we need to be clear also about the ideology which underwrites that behavior, an ideology which comes out of one branch of feminism and which views masculinity and men as the root of all evil

in the view of these people, all human beings are " intergendered," and gay men are simply better at recognizing their "feminine" side

that's BULLSHIT

there are two sexes, genetically determined, and though you can mess with them through culture and now through hormone therapy and surgery -- that doesn't change a thing

a male to female transgender still has a man's genes

if people were truly intergendered, you wouldn't need all that surgery and all those hormones to change them

but they're not

so: men who have sex with men are not some sort of third or intermediary sex --

they're just men

but because the culture thinks that men who have sex with men are women, many of those men think so too

they're WRONG

they're still men

and that's what we tell them on this site and in the Alliance

some of them agree, and some of them don't

but that's a function of the degree to which they've been acculturated into mainstream gay male culture -- not biology

4. "...at the same time though within the gay cvulture theirs the top/bottom daddy/boi butch/bitch mentality...none of that jives with me, of course I explored myself within that culture but always ended up lacking in feelings, it was not me, most of them as sure they are "gay" they define themselves by it, they feel it thru them and their bones"

no -- they say they feel it in their bones, but that's the just the power of the zillions of cultural messages they've absorbed saying that if it's not anal, it's not gay

5. "...I don't...I am a masculine guy"

yes you are -- just as we are

i like being a man

i've never wanted to be a woman

Jag you said:

"even as a kid the male body facinated me because I was trying to understand my own body and what it was capable of...I could not wait to become a man and be able to do manly things instead of boyish things"

i think that's true for a great many men in this club and in the Alliance

but many of us who are gay-identified have had to struggle to free ourselves of that feminist ideology which says it's bad to be a man

we knew in our hearts that it isn't

but it took us awhile to be able to say so

so that's what The Man2Man Alliance is about

not just for gay-identified guys, but for bi and straight-identified men too

Jag, you do have a home here

and it will be here for you -- as i've been telling all the guys -- so long as you support it and help maintain it

unfortunately, you're meeting us at a time of fiscal crisis, and so you'll be reading a lot of posts on the board about donations

that's just a reality -- nothing's free, and although i've paid for the sites for three years out of my own pocket, i can no longer afford to do so

so i hope over time you and everyone else who visits the site will be able to see your way to not just supporting the site but to expanding its activities so that we can reach the literally millions of men like yourself who need to and want to hear our message but at present don't know we exist

this is the message i'm sending to everyone, whether they've been with us for the last three years or just found us today

the site will be here for you so long as you help it to be

Jag -- thank you again for your post -- it's excellent and i know you'll hear from other guys about it

David McQuarrie

Re: In Awe...

2-4-2004

WOW: JAG that was a powerful post; that took courage man. You're definitely in touch with who you are. No identity crisis with you, that's for sure. That's a good thing, by the way.

Your personal journey has led you through a lot of situations that could have potentially "crippled" you emotionally; thankfully that doesn't appear to be the case.

Your feelings about being masculine, appreciating being a man is what we all feel here, I believe.

That's what makes this site so valuable. It's a place to come to share experiences and personal accounts. A place to reaffirm your masculinity, it's been that sort of place for me!

There’s NO SHAME or abnormality about wanting and needing a special bonding with another guy. I'd argue that it’s abnormal for society to expect men NOT TO.

JAG, I really appreciated reading your journey, it's made you the man you are today.

Welcome to the club bud!

David

Eric Lupin

Re: In Awe...

2-7-2004

Jag, thank you so much for sharing your experiences and feelings in this forum. I empathize strongly with you as I, too, am adopted. For whatever reason, my knowledge that I am adopted is somehow *deeply* tied to my sense of masculinity, and the ways I choose to express that masculinity. What blows me away is that I've actually met my blood family--all my birth-siblings, we're all male, five of us, and ALL of us, despite growing up in entirely different parts of the USA and in entirely different environments, have had *at least* one hot, masculine, bonding, cock-rubbing experience that we all *fiercely* defend as being a total, essential part of our male identity.

It's a little embarrassing to admit--and yet I'm also conscious of how many men view this as hot, myself included--but when I met my birth-brothers in 1994 there was a sexual fire there between us all, something we simply couldn't deny. Whether it was all those years of feeling like we never "really" belonged with the family that had adopted us or the fact that most of us were adopted into homes where we were the only child, when we all met--and we were all sufficiently uninhibited--the very first thing we did was to masturbate together. It was my first circle-jerk, and let me tell you, it was quite hot: I've never considered myself handsome, but I thought all four of my older brothers fit into the handsome category quite nicely...and when all four of them expressed jealousy over the fact that I was hairy and all of them were quite smooth, we quite "naturally" moved on to exploring all the other aspects of our bodies...which led naturally into the circle-jerk. It was an overwhelmingly powerful and extremely pleasurable experience for all of us: the excitement of we people who actually looked alike (genes will tell, and I knew immediately upon looking at my birth brothers that we shared something on an inexplicable molecular level, even though all of us had been adopted into entirely different homes, and entirely different environments) and who had so many similar physical traits was too much for us to resist. We simply had to share some form of sexual expression of ourselves one with the other.

The thing that blows me away is that I'm the only one who self-identifies as gay. All the other men are married or in a long-term relationship with a woman. Yet all the females heartily endorsed and even got turned on in some respects by what we did together. The need for five men, united ONLY by genetics, to bond via sexual expression, was understood by EVERYone present as wholesome, natural, and just as something merely long-delayed: had we grown up "naturally" in the same household, this sort of thing would have happened anyways. "That's what little dudes do," as Keanu Reeves in the movie "Parenthood" put it ... and it's true.

Nothing, to me, confirmed my status as a red-blooded male, as that "incestuous" experience with my blood relatives. Many of the feelings you describe, the path that has led you to where you are today, I empathize with. I've always known I was adopted. Alongside that knowledge, there has been a deeply rooted desire to know the people that I am related to by blood. I never expected to meet those people, and yet once it did happen, the fact that we all masturbated together (and some of us went further than that) seemed like the most natural, the most MALE, thing to do. That we did it with the full knowledge, *and approval* of the significant females in our lives means to me that we, as adopted men, have something to contribute to the collected wisdom regarding the human experience. Hopefully people will learn something from those experiences, and find hope that someday, someday, we will, as human beings, be allowed to fully express who we are and how we feel and how we decide to give and receive pleasures of all types.

Keep writing. I'll keep reading.

Eric Lupin

Paul

Re: In Awe...

2-16-2004

Hey Jag, thanks for the great posting...really woke me up and got me thinking. I'm in NOVA as well and am just discovering this frot thing...but it looks like what I've been after for a long time. Thanks again for the great words...

JAGUSMC

Re: In Awe...

2-22-2004

Well fellas,

I have to say thanks for the words of encouragement, it really mean alot and is important to me that I come across clearly and make sense to other guys. I think for the mostpart even though I don't want to think or admit that it's possible I do think I crave acceptance of myself thru others to a degree. for the most part i go thru life not really giving a shit what people think of the outter shell that I allow them to see. It's a projected illusion insomuchas they only see what I allow them to see and nothing really too deep but when I come here or meet someone I can open up to and speak indepth about my self, ideas, wants, desires, needs thats when the kid in me looks for acceptance, not necesarily from older/father figure type guys but more of my own peers. It's odd, I do try to be really deep down cold heartly honest withmyself when I do self exploration. I sincerely do not have a desire for a father or father figure, I don't like to be told what to do outside the norms of society (i.e. boss at work, marines rank structure etc, all neccesary evils so to speak) outside of these day to day figure heads anyone who meets me would see that I'm not out to be taken care of or lack the fundadmentals some of the young guys out there today lack and look for to be filled by an older guy who will take the reins over in heir lives. sure I am the first to listen to good sage advice and learn from the mistakes and experiences of others, young, old that doesn't matter, the lesson they teach is the "meat" of it all.

Sometimes I think I'm just rambling and contridicting myself back and forth and really I don't know what I want...but I really do know, I just self analyze myself too much and worry that it doesn't make sense to others and really it probably shouldn't make sense because it's from my own mind, my own experiences and my own life that have created the desires within me, I dunno I think really what bothers me the most is the loneliness, the isolation that comes with any life other than the majority. Sometimes being the strong one, the one wearing the white good guys hat, doesn't amount to shit except in your own eyes...endurance is the key... I guess it probably explains the suicide rates being so high among the gay and likeminded guys...it's not the hate or the disgust, the looks or lack of understanding the esssense of FROT, it's the distance from your fellow man...how better to kill the soul of a man who craves the bond with another man by cutting him off from men, whether it be spiritually or pyhsically...isolation is isolation self imposed or not, some guys feel isolation from God, some from male family members, some from male friends...I have all these things, I'm not isolated because I choose to not really lie about who I am but to maintain myself and behavior within the norms of what others think to be norm...I don't feel the need to broadcast my sexual desires and wants to the general public (I mean would anyone want their bathroom manners and deeds broadcasted?), and not because I worry bout my own safety cause I can definately handle myself when push comes to shove, thats not the issue, the isolation would be what would do me in, in the end.. seclusion is lethal to a man who wants nothing more than the connection and deep bond of and with another man.

It funny, this past Friday I was working late printing out pictures of my dogs, past and present...my boss said you know you got all these pictures of your dogs and no women, you better be careful people will start wondering about you, I said oh I got pictures of women I just don't post them on my walls like I do my dogs and besides I don't care what people think, and then walked back to my office. So yeah there was the impact of those comments to try and isolate me from others why because I spend so much time on my dogs, that they are my passion, that nothing excites me more than talking bout them or working in photography with them, my day to day strength comes from knowing I'm doing right by them and they don't care about insignificant worldy things, they just want to be loved and loved by me and if the world was to end tomorrow despite technically being alone physically, I'd die knowing love and the bond between them and me was the truest form of male masculinity, love and bonding on an emotional level.

*Before anyone justs to any conclusions, no I was not eluding to beastiality or anything of that nature. I only say this cause this is a site about man2man expresions and here I end up talking bout my dogs and my love for them. I do this to explain certain aspects of myself , personality and my life and the paralells of my life with them and the ongoing pursuit of finding a warrior brother. They provide examples to me of how I can be a better man, they bring out the emotion in me and they move me when they die and leave me. Really these dogs, this breed I work with in rescue and whatnot are the only things that could, would and have made me cry, and the odd things is THAT and what I do for them makes me feel like a real man.*

JAGUSMC jagusmc@hotmail.com

Bill Weintraub

Re: In Awe...

02-22-2004

thanks Jag

i want to talk about isolation

jag says "I think really what bothers me the most is the loneliness, the isolation that comes with any life other than the majority ...

"some guys feel isolation from God, some from male family members, some from male friends ...

"seclusion is lethal to a man who wants nothing more than the connection and deep bond of and with another man."

one of the things that concerns very much and is one of the key reasons that i've been trying so hard to raise money for this site and our cause, is this question of isolation

most of the men in here are isolated to some degree beyond the norm

the gay men are isolated not just as gay men but as gay men who are outside the gay male mainstream

and the bi and straight-identified men are seldom able to talk to anyone in their circle of acquaintance about what they want and need sexually from another man

that's not a good thing, and it's serious

and that's one of the key reasons i want to expand our outreach

because the more men who encounter and join the Alliance, the better your chances are of meeting a buddy, a friend, a lover, a partner

and of building a circle of friends, like-minded guys whom you can talk to

so it matters -- raising money for outreach matters

there are many other things i'd rather do with my time

but there's no escaping that this is something we have to do because of the strength of the social forces on the analist left and religious right opposed to us

Jag understands that -- he donated last month, along with a number of other men, and you can meet them and read their reasons for donating on our Warrior Titans page

and everyone of you must do his part in this -- participation is not optional

so that Jag's isolation -- and the isolation that we all feel and that we share, paradoxically, with literally millions of men -- can come to an end