Josh

Re: Just sharing an experience

7-30-2004

I find it very helpful to just be very open about what you're into and what you're not into with everybody who asks. I feel like this way I'm educating people about who I really am and I'm opening up their minds that there is more to gay sex than just anal. So, your question was how should you approach it with a new guy: easy. Just have a conversation and ask him if anal sex is all he's into and how it would affect him to know that you're not into it. I talk about frottage like I talk about anything else.

Josh

seattle77

Re: Just sharing an experience

8-4-2004

Just discovered this site tonight myself and am finding the sheer amount of information a bit overwhelming (if very interesting!). I don't subscribe to the view that anal and oral sex are flawed or unhealthy (although they're undoubtedly more risky) but do feel that there is something particularly special and unique about frot that makes it an ideal sexual activity. With diseases such as AIDS hovering about these days it's also easy to see how someone could totally reject anal sex entirely and develop a philosophy based around frot. I also agree that most of the physical pleasure in anal sex is for the top. Having bottomed once, I'd say the strongest feeling afterward was a feeling of being (don't laugh) useful...feeling like I'd provided another guy with some pleasure which was a nice feeling, and I stress the mental aspect of that here. From a physical standpoint... the experience was completely neutral...no discomfort but no real pleasure either.

After reading your post I would recommend bringing your frot interest up the moment the topic of sex comes up with a potential partner. The fact is there are lots of guys out there who still want to know "Are you a top or a bottom?" and will judge whether they want to go further based entirely on your answer. Better this than to invest much time in a relationship and find out that your partner has no interest in frot, thinks it weird, and by extension thinks YOU weird.

The first time I ever came during sex with another guy was during a frot session. I felt a bit odd afterward, maybe a little embarrassed that I didn't fall into the "fuck or suck" activities I was supposed to. Frankly, I think the other guy thought it was weird that I would prefer frotting (or just humping his leg) to anal sex (which at the time frankly seemed like more trouble than it was worth).

We'll, now I'm 34 and quite happy to accept that I like frot and if someone else doesn't that's their issue. When I find a potential partner I'm mentioning frot as soon as the topic of sex is raised, to avoid any problems later. :O)

seattle77

Bill Weintraub

Re: Just sharing an experience

8-4-2004

Hi seattle dude

You say that you "don't subscribe to the view that anal and oral sex are flawed or unhealthy (although they're undoubtedly more risky [than frot])"

Let's see if we can make any sense of that

1. anal sex isn't flawed

even though: "I also agree that most of the physical pleasure in anal sex is for the top. Having bottomed once, I'd say the strongest feeling afterward was a feeling of being (don't laugh) useful...feeling like I'd provided another guy with some pleasure which was a nice feeling, and I stress the mental aspect of that here.

"From a physical standpoint... the experience was completely neutral...no discomfort but no real pleasure either."

Somehow, it terms of sexual pleasure, that sounds seriously flawed to me.

Of course, if you're a top, as it would appear you are, the flaw is minor -- you get to enjoy yourself, even as you're perforating your partner's rectum and exposing him to a myriad of dangerous diseases, some fatal, while staying somewhat safe yourself.

Unless you're uncut, in which case you're bathing your foreskin and the rest of your dick in a sea of pathogenic rectal secretions and fecal material.

What fun!

So let's try that again:

Anal sex isn't flawed even though it's "risky" and offers "no real pleasure either" other than the "feeling of being useful."

That "feeling of being useful" is what prostitutes, oops, i mean female sex workers, experience: they make themselves "useful" to a man in return for something else -- in their case money.

That sort of sex is known to anthropologists as "transactional" -- sex in exchange for money.

Among gay men, however, this works a little differently.

Most are not bottoming for money -- they're bottoming to play a role and fulfill a cultural expectation.

The role of *she* who services and serves as a sperm receptacle for a real man.

Which is the reason so many gay men refer to themselves as sluts and whores.

Because they're playing a prostitute's role and they know it -- all they're doing during anal penetration is pleasing another man.

While not getting pleasure themselves.

But, according to you seattle dude, that's not "flawed or unhealthy."

You're wrong.

It is both flawed and unhealthy.

And all humanity knows it.

It's one thing to make yourself "useful" to an employer by tilling his fields or typing his letters or coding his software.

It's quite another to make yourself "useful" to an employer by taking into your body his blood, his spit, and his sperm.

To do that is to degrade yourself, whether you're a man or a woman.

That's why humanity despises and denigrates whores.

What about the gay male community?

They've managed to take transactional sex to a whole new level of objectification and alienation -- and is so doing, seriously damaged themselves physically and psychically.

As Mart Finn points out on our Definitions page under Transactional Sex

In my work I do not associate any exchange of money or goods for sex when I talk about the experience being a 'transactional'one. By transactional I mean a kind of sex, whether it be casual or in a relationship, where one party or usually both are psychically distanced from each other. They are 'doing sex together' ... for themselves.

The concept is inextricably linked to the commercialisation of gay male attitudes to sex and often life. Sex is just another activity. To be compared and evaluated against previous experience and those of our peers and dominant subcultural norms. ...

[emphases mine]

(The alternative, by the way and according to Mart, is Interactional Sex. Ck it out. Mart is one of the finest thinkers about sex on the planet.)

You also say, seattle dude, that you experienced no discomfort when you were penetrated.

Either you're lying or you were on drugs.

The anal spinchter resists penetration, and it's painful to be penetrated -- even for experienced "bottoms," which by your own admission you are not.

So when you say that "From a physical standpoint ... the experience was completely neutral" I don't believe you, because that statement strains credulity.

If you were fucked, your anus was penetrated and your rectum repeatedly battered and rammed by some guy's dick.

There's no way you didn't feel that -- unless you were completely anaesthetized by drugs.

Afterwards, the impacted shit in your colon had to make its way out of your body -- something inescapable of which you had to be aware.

As you would have been of the smells, the farts, the shit stains on the sheets.

No matter what you say, the experience was not "completely neutral."

What that sounds like to me is a top's way of justifying his abuse of his partners: hey, I got fucked and there was no problem.

Now, seattle dude, you do allow that anal and oral are "risky."

A word much favored by the "safer-sex" boyz.

How "risky" are they?

Let's take a look at the standard list of STI's vectored by anal penetration, oral "sex," and anal-oral contact:

1. Gonorrhea

2. Chlamydia

3. Lymphogranuloma Venereum (LGV -- just had a big MSM outbreak in Europe -- quite nasty)

4. Syphilis

5. Chancroid

6. Donovanosis (Granuloma Inguinale)

7. Ureaplasma Urealyticum (T-Mycoplasma)

8. Human Immunodeficiency Virus Type 1

9. Human Immunodeficiency Virus Type 2

10. Shigella -- oral-anal; oral sex also -- ask if you need an explanation

11. Salmonella -- oral-anal; oral sex also

12. Herpes Simplex Virus Type 1

13. Herpes Simplex Virus Type 2

14. Cytomegalovirus

15. Hepatitis B

16. Hepatitis C

17. Trichomoniasis -- oral-anal; oral sex also

18. Giardiasis -- oral-anal; oral sex also

19. Amoebiasis -- oral-anal; oral sex also

20. Human Papillomavirus

21. Molluscum Contagiosum -- oral-anal; oral sex also

This is actually the short list -- I took out a few I thought were questionable even though the physicians had them on there.

Of this list, numbers 8 and 9 are universally fatal and numbers 1, 4, 5, and 15 are potentially so -- that's 25% -- not great odds.

Those transmitted through oral-anal "sex" (I don't know why it's called "sex" since neither the mouth nor the anus contain genital tissue) include numbers 10, 11, 17, 18, 19, and 21; you can also get these through licking someone's balls (or even, if you're unlucky, his sweaty nips -- ask if you don't understand why), and I suspect you can get most of the others through cock-sucking as well.

In addition, anal penetration is, among male-male sexual acts, uniquely dangerous mechanically: anal fissures and leakage are two of the best known, very common, problems.

And even hemmorhoids can be dangerous.

So, seattle dude, not to put too fine a point on it, I think you're a fool to say that these acts aren't "flawed or unhealthy."

One anally-vectored disease alone was for years the leading cause of death among young men in America and is currently killing vast numbers of people throughout the world.

Sounds unhealthy to me.

And when you've got a male sexual subculture whose members believe they're sluts and whores, you've got another big health problem -- a mental health problem.

Just how risky, by contrast, is Frot?

Here's the answer per the San Francisco Dept of Public Health's expert on sexually transmitted disease, Dr. Jeffrey Klausner

Dr. Klausner says there's a remote chance of HPV transmission during Frot -- and that's it.

The pleasure is genital, mutual, very hot, and there's no loss of masculinity.

How bout promiscuity, which we don't support either:

According to the Medical Institute for Sexual Health,

"A major epidemic of sexually transmitted disease (STD) has developed during the last 30 years. In the 1960s syphilis and gonorrhea, both easily treated with penicillin, were the only important STDs. Today there are over 20 significantly prevalent diseases with 15.3 million newly infected Americans each year..."

Notice that's 15.3 *newly* infected Americans -- since "The problem is compounded because many individuals infected with the most common STDs -- chlamydia, genital herpes and human papillomavirus -- do not experience noticeable symptoms and do not know that they are contagious."

That's particularly true of men who are anally receptive.

For example, HPV prevalence among these men is 30 times higher than in the general population.

Then there's the 900,000 + Americans living with HIV -- a number larger than at any previous time in the history of the epidemic; about three quarters of those -- minimally 675,000 bi and gay men -- were infected through anal penetration.

Anal penetration is a meaningless miasma of disease, subjugation, and pain -- as sex or as anything else, it's seriously flawed and should be abandoned.

Now, regarding relationships, what seattle dude has to say is sensible.

Except, Sandman, I'd tell the guy now.

You're not going to be business partners.

You're going to be lovers.

Sex is a big part of that.

Few sexually discordant relationships survive.

Which means, you have to tell the guy -- this is the way it has to be for me.

If he loves you -- he'll respect it.

If he can't respect it, then he doesn't love you.

He's in love with something else -- your car or your condo or the idea of being in love.

But not with you.

No one likes being rejected.

But if you let yourself be ruled by your fear of rejection, you'll end up in a relationship which isn't sustainable.

And by doing that, you'll have closed the door to the possibility of meeting someone whom you could love and who could love you for yourself.

Because that's what it's about.

I've never had any question, with either Brett or Patrick, that the man I was with loved me -- and loved me for who I was.

Not for someone or something else he wanted me to be.

Bill Weintraub

IowaRandy

Re: Just sharing an experience

9-1-2004

What and eye opener this site is! Recently moved in with the bf/ both discreet and carefull...I love oral and bottom. but i also know he likes the feeling/jo scene...I have assumed he wanted to cum in my mouth/ass...now i know better...thanks for the words....gonna try strictly frot with him without the rest...could be way hot....thanks again guys!

IowaRandy