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Frot among the animals
Frot among the animals
2-25-2007
Chuck Tarver very kindly alerted me to these passages from Bruce Bagemihl's Biological Exuberance: Animal Homosexuality and Natural Diversity -- which is discussed on our MediaWatch page.
Gray whales (Eschrichtius robustus)
Male homosexual interactions among Gray Whales occur frequently in the northern summering waters and during the northward migration. Sexual and affectionate activities occur close to the surface of the water in long sessions lasting anywhere from 30 minutes to more than an hour and a half. Often more than two males are involved, sometimes as many as four or five. The whales begin by rolling around each other and onto their sides, with much splashing of water, flailing of fins and flukes at the surface, and occasional slapping of the surface and blowing; sometimes two males rise out of the water several feet in a throat-to-throat position. The whales rub their bellies together and position themselves so that their genital areas are in contact, and usually one or more has an arching, erect or semi-erect penis (which is a distinctive light pink in color and may be three to five feet in length and a foot in circumference at its base). Often two or more males intertwine their penises above the water surface, or one male may lay his erect penis on another male’s belly or perhaps nudge the other’s penis with his head. Female homosexual interactions may also occur.
Gray Whales also frequently form same-sex companionships (pairs and trios) that travel and feed together throughout the summer (without necessarily engaging in sexual activity with one another). They swim in an intimate side-by-side position, often with their side fins touching, and travel back and forth along the length of coastal inlets for hours at a time, apparently with no particular purpose other than to be together. Such companions also perform synchronized blowing and diving maneuvers, including feeding and breaching (an acrobatic leap two-thirds out of the water, landing with a dramatic splash on their sides or backs). Two whales also often roll over and under each other, rubbing bellies. Both short-term and long-term (recurring) pair- and trio-bonds occur: some last only for a few hours or days, with the whales changing partners several times over the summer; other companionships endure from year to year.
Bottlenose dolphin (Tursiops truncatus)
Male Bottlenose Dolphins often form lifelong pair-bonds with each other. Adolescent and younger males typically live in all-male groups in which homosexual activity is common; within these groups, a male begins to develop a strong bond with a particular partner (usually of the same age) with whom he will spend the rest of his life. The two Dolphins become constant companions, often traveling widely; although sexual activity probably declines as they get older, it may continue to be a regular feature of such partnerships. Paired males sometimes take turns guarding or remaining vigilant while their partner rests. They also defend their mates against predators such as sharks and protect them while they are healing from wounds inflicted during predators' attacks. Sometimes three males form a tightly bonded trio. On the death of his partner, a male may spend a long time searching for a new male companion -- usually unsuccessfully, since most other males in the community are already paired and will not break their bonds. If, however, he can find another "widower" whose male partner has died, the two may become a couple...
The lives of male Bottlenose Dolphins are characterized by extensive bisexuality, combined with periods of exclusive homosexuality. As adolescents and young males, they have regular homosexual interactions in all-male groups, sometimes alternating with heterosexual activity. From age 10 onward, most male Dolphins form pair-bonds with another male, and because they do not usually father calves until they are 20-25 years old, this can be an extended period -- 10-15 years -- of principally same-sex interaction. Later, when they begin mating heterosexually, they still retain their primary male pair-bonds, and in some populations male pairs and trios cooperate in herding females or in interacting homosexually with Spotted Dolphins.
West Indian Manatees (Trichechus manatus)
Male West Indian Manatees of all ages regularly engage in intense homosexual activities. In a typical encounter, two males embrace, rub their genital openings against each other, and then unsheathe or erect their penises and rub them together, often to ejaculation. During a homosexual mating, the two males often tumble to the bottom, thrusting against each other and wallowing in the mud as they clasp each other tightly. A wide variety of positions are used, including embracing in head-to-tail and sideways positions, often with interlocking penises or flipper-penis contact. All of these are distinct from the position used for heterosexual copulation, in which the male typically swims underneath the female on his back and mates with her upside down. Lasting for up to two minutes, homosexual copulations are generally four to eight times longer than heterosexual ones. Before they engage in sexual activity, males often "kiss" each other by touching their muzzles at the surface of the water. In addition, several other types of affectionate and tactile activities are a part of homosexual interactions, including mouthing and caressing of each other’s body, nibbling or nuzzling of the genital region, and riding by one male on the back of the other (a behavior also seen in heterosexual interactions). Sometimes a male emits vocalizations indicating his pleasure during homosexual activity, variously described as high-pitched squeaks, chirp-squeaks, or snort-chirps. If, however, he is not interested in participating, he may emit a squealing sound, slapping his tail as he flees from the other male (just the way females do when trying to escape from unwanted advances of males)...
Bill Weintraub:
First, let's start with the Frot component of this.
What's apparent is that when mammals are anatomically able to Frot -- they do.
Which is why we see the behavior in chimps -- bonobos; and in dolphins, whales, and manatees.
The chimps, dolphins, and whales are, of course, by human standards, "intelligent."
But I don't think that's true of manatees -- they're herbivores and don't need to be particularly smart.
So I don't think this is a question of smarts.
I think it's more a question of, first off, is this anatomically possible?
If you look at some of the other passages in Bagemihl, what you'll see is that four-legged animals often mount each other and rub -- the way your dog will do your leg.
That's frottage -- sexual rubbing.
Clearly, it would be difficult for most four-legged animals like dogs or rams or bulls to rub cocks.
Though -- if they could figure out a way to do it -- they would.
Because it's intrinsically pleasurable.
So Frot is a completely NATURAL behavior -- among animals -- and among humans.
Now let's return to the issues raised in Crimes against nature.
Given the abundance of what Bagemihl calls "animal homosexuality," what's Dr Roselli -- he's the man at the Orwellian-named University of Science and Health who's been killing rams who seek to "mate" with other rams so that he can dissect their brains -- what's he going to do?
Will he make a career of it?
Where he kills bottlenose dophins and gray whales and manatees and otters and seals and bulls and so on and so on and so on -- all in the name of determining which are "likeliest to breed" and controlling "sexual motivation and mate selection?"
Those are the reasons given in the Times article.
Problem: none of these species are having difficulties breeding.
And they're doing just fine when it comes to sexual motivation and mate selection.
They're having a lot of sex and they're choosing the mates they please.
So -- why do they have to be studied and killed or killed and studied?
I mean, the killing's always in there -- right?
I mean, hey, when it comes to "bisexuality" / "homosexuality" there's a virtually unlimited supply of potential victims out there because we're talking the entire animal kingdom.
Lots of dead meat on the way guys.
And I'm not kidding about this because what I've seen over the course of my 59 years of being "a homosexual" is that creeps like Roselli turn THEIR OWN and society's discomfort with Manly Love and Womanly Affection into lucrative careers.
At this point, Roselli's "research" is being funded by our very own National Institutes of Health.
But that's just the tip of the iceberg.
There are the books, the magazine and newspaper articles, the talk shows, the TV specials, the webcasts -- there's no end to the opportunities for someone who's willing eager and able to exploit our heterosexualized society's obsession with and confusion about same-sex love.
I've seen this over and over again in my life.
In the 60s and 70s there were two psychoanalytically-based "therapists" -- Bieber and Socarides -- whose entire careers consisted of telling "homosexuals" that they were mentally ill and claiming to "cure" them.
Socarides died not too long ago -- it turned out that he had a gay-identified son.
Apparently they didn't much talk about it.
I wonder if Roselli has kids.
What's he going to do if one of his male children seeks to mate with another male?
Kill him and dissect his brain?
I also know from my life experience that every time some idiot like Roselli or Socarides says it's the parents, it's a hormone, it's a gene -- MEN in our fucked-up, fucked-over, heterosexualized and heterosexist society are done enormous damage.
Not just gay-identified men.
But ALL MEN.
When I started this effort more than seven years ago now, I wrote about cultural tyrannies.
I talked about the Heterosexual Dictatorship and the Buttfuck Dictatorship.
And I warned my fellow MEN that the ONLY WAY to survive is to CHALLENGE those tyrannies.
CONSTANTLY AND WITHOUT CEASING.
YOU CANNOT FOR A MOMENT LET SOMEONE LIKE ROSELLI GO UNCHALLENGED.
That will kill you.
The guys who didn't challenge the Heterosexual Dictatorship ended up internalizing a "mentally ill" self-image -- and they either committed suicide outright or spent a lifetime trying to dull the pain with drugs and alcohol.
The guys who didn't challenge the Buttfuck Dictatorship ended up dying of AIDS.
And to this day they continue to get infected with HIV and HPV and who knows what else -- and with what result we cannot be certain.
So: when, in the face of all the evidence we have of joyful and affectionate and loving same-sex activity among animals, someone like Roselli insists on treating that activity as abnormal, anomalous, aberrant, and deserving of dissection --
you need to understand that there's something very WRONG with Roselli.
Because it can't work both ways.
Either there's something wrong with Nature --
or there's something wrong with Roselli.
And if there's something wrong with Nature -- then there's something wrong with YOU.
And YOU have to decide whether you think that's true.
Is there something WRONG with YOU?
Is there?
Are you less than a MAN because you want to rub cocks with another MAN?
If so, are the dolphins less than dolphins, the whales less than whales, the manatees less than manatees, the chimps less than chimps?
Are the rams less than rams?
The bulls less than bulls?
Do YOU not see that the animals themselves do not question the behavior?
If the animals don't, why then do YOU?
Robert:
How many human lives have been destroyed by the false science of our society? How many people, male and female, are IMPRISONED in their own minds afraid to be who they really are and do what they really want to do? How many people have already been separated from their INNER SELVES and no longer even have a clue to who or what they really are? And, what has been the cost of all this to the world, to the brotherhood of man? The cost, rest assured, has been GREAT!! The psychological and spiritually DEAD are EVERYWHERE today!
I would encourage everyone to get out into nature and OBSERVE the OBVIOUS! You will discover that you are more normal than you think. You will begin to discover your INNER and NATURAL SELF! You will find much within yourself that is natural and very much in tune with NATURE. You will become ALIVE again and stop being one of the DEAD! And, finally, as you connect with nature and become a part of nature instead of fighting against nature you will begin to LIVE IN THE LIGHT as you come out of the darkness emposed upon you by modern society. And when you return to society all the HYPOCRISY and LIES will be obvious to you and you will laugh at the sheer IGNORANCE that so plagues modern society today especially the ignorance regarding homosexuality as being "abnormal."
Bill Weintraub
© All material Copyright 2007 by Bill Weintraub. All rights reserved.
Re: Frot among the animals
2-26-2007
Guys, I want to add something to this post.
This is what Bagemihl says about bottlenose dolphins:
The lives of male Bottlenose Dolphins are characterized by extensive bisexuality, combined with periods of exclusive homosexuality. As adolescents and young males, they have regular homosexual interactions in all-male groups, sometimes alternating with heterosexual activity. From age 10 onward, most male Dolphins form pair-bonds with another male, and because they do not usually father calves until they are 20-25 years old, this can be an extended period -- 10-15 years -- of principally same-sex interaction. Later, when they begin mating heterosexually, they still retain their primary male pair-bonds, and in some populations male pairs and trios cooperate in herding females or in interacting homosexually with Spotted Dolphins.
That's Sparta!
And who knows how many other ancient and traditional human cultures.
Bagemihl: "From age 10 onward, most male Dolphins form pair-bonds with another male"
According to Plutarch, Spartan boys formed pair-bonds around age 12.
Bagemihl: "and because they do not usually father calves until they are 20-25 years old, this can be an extended period -- 10-15 years -- of principally same-sex interaction."
Spartan men didn't marry till they were thirty.
So they had close to twenty years, in theory, "of principally same-sex interaction."
Bagemihl: "Later, when they begin mating heterosexually, they still retain their primary male pair-bonds"
So far as we know, that was true in Sparta too.
And their environment continued to be largely homosocial.
Every full-grown Spartan male was expected to belong to an all-male eating club or mess, where he took all his meals.
It was critical for him to remain a member in good standing of his mess.
It was a crucial affiliation.
If in some way and for some reason he fell out with his eating club, he was basically dead in society.
So, it's almost startling to read the Bagemihl -- because the parallels are so strong.
As species, after all, dolphins and humans are not closely related.
This would appear to be a case of parallel evolution.
And, I have to wonder how much of the dolphin behavior is learned.
Given their intelligence, presumably a lot of it is, in which case we have a parallel CULTURAL evolution between species.
But which MUST be biologically based.
Because left to their own devices, this is what HUMAN males do:
1. They form all-male -- homosocial -- groups; in which
2. They develop romantic attachments with each other.
Spartans / Dolphins
Dolphins / Spartans
Come to your senses guys.
© All material Copyright 2007 by Bill Weintraub. All rights reserved.
Re: Frot among the animals
3-6-2007
Thank you so much for this post, Bill. This post is another "proof" that sexual rubbing, frot, is natural and benefitial to those who practice it.
As an adolescent I remember seeing a nature program on TV about the social behavior of bottlenose dolphins. I remember being awestruck when this subject came up. The film crew caught on camera a small group of young dolphins frotting not twenty feet from the boat. The dolphins showed no signs of shame or embarrassment, it was part of their natural bonding bahavior.
When I read in the post about the dissection of dolphins' brains I was enraged. What is this guy trying to prove? It's like all those scientists trying to find a "gay gene" or something biologically different about the gay man.
I remember reading a scientific journal article in a college class I took a few years back where a team of scinetists "found" that some region of the brain of "gay" men was different than those of "straight" men after performing an autopsy. Supposedly, it was closer to the shape of a woman's brain. There was a small graph in the article showing density and size of this region comparing brains dissected from the "gay" sample, "straight" sample, and women. Somehow, the scientists found a commonality in brain structure amoungst each group.
There were three fatal flaws that my group of undergrad students (not PhD students) found with the findings of the "experiment". 1) The graph was too damn small. The points of the graph were supposedly close together because of the size of the thing. 2) The sample size was small. The research team "studied" a group of between a dozen and twenty individuals. Any research scientist will tell you that for conclusive experimental data, samples should be taken from no less than 100 specimens depending on the experiement. The smaller the sampling, the larger the experimental error will be. 3) The "orientation" of some of the individuals was assumed and not known factually (that is, if we believe the pre-conceived notion of orientation). Obviously, you cannot ask a dead person what orientation they are.
There was further outrage amoungst my peers that someone would have the audacity of desecrating the dead, half of which died from, you guessed it, AIDS, by picking apart their brains (sarcastic pun intended).
That brings me to the "gay gene", which was another topic of discussion in the class. If homosexuality were dictated by genetics, homosexuality would not exist. Exclusive homosexuals (I mean by that, people who do not participate in heterosexual practice) do not produce children. No offspring means no one to carry the genetic heritage into the future. No genetics for homosexuality, no homosexuality in subsequent generations. This is certainly not the case, so homosexuality is NOT genetic.
The key point I make in all of this, sexual dimorphism, not a continuum of people ranging from male to female. Bill has much to say about this. Please read about it if you haven't already.
Also, Bill mentioned that the three species of mammals mentioned in the origianl post have no problems mating.
This brings me full circle in my long-winded post. Frot, a natural, beneficial choice among MEN who love MEN.
Re: Frot among the animals
3-7-2007
Thank you Justin.
I want to say a few words about these hormonal and genetic theories on the "causation of homosexuality" because all your lives -- if those of you who are young have lives like mine -- you're going to have people coming at you with these theories.
The first thing to understand is that same-sex feelings, affection, bonding, and sex are normal, natural, and indeed common among both human beings and other animals.
And that NO ONE has ever demonstrated that these feelings, this affection, this bonding, or this sex, provided that when between human males it is mutually phallic, is in any way detrimental to human beings -- or animals.
So: there's NO evidence that same-sex feeings are in any way UNhealthy or diseased.
To the contrary -- what we see among animals and among human beings is that such feelings are life-enhancing.
They are healthy.
YET -- people continue to try to impose MEDICAL MODELS about the "causation of homosexuality" on these perfectly normal, NATURAL, and common expressions of love and affection.
Medical models imply disease and dysphoria -- even though there's none there.
You need to be clear then that those who attempt to impose those models are reflecting society's discomfort and their own with this love and affection.
Again, genetic and hormonal theories about the "causation of homosexuality" are just another medical model of what is actually a natural and healthy human phenomenon.
We fought very hard in the 1960s and 70s to get rid of the medical model of homosexuality -- which at the time was psychoanalytic and was very destructive -- and replace it with a humanistic model --
A model which sees same-sex affection as an essential and completely natural part of the human experience.
Which it is.
So when people start talking to me about genes and hormones, I just say,
Been there, Done that.
Because I have.
In spades.
And it was a royal waste of time.
And worse.
Doctors are fine when you're sick -- but if you're not sick, and a doctor starts messing with you, you may very well end up being sick.
No joke.
So: given that same-sex feelings and behavior are found throughout nature -- given that they're normal and natural -- the last thing we should be doing or want to do is medicalize those feelings.
DON'T TRUST ANYONE WHO DOES THAT.
I don't care if they're doing it in the name of pyschology or psychiatry or genetics or physiology or anything else.
If they're doing it, there's something WRONG with THEM.
There's NOTHING WRONG with YOU.
Men Love Men.
Men have sex with Men.
They have since the beginning of time.
And the human race has done just fine.
If someone sends you a genetic or hormonal or other "scientific" explanation for "homosexuality," I suggest that you hit delete or otherwise send it to your nearest circular file.
Because these "explanations" are not helpful, and not honest.
The Love of Man is part of being a Man.
How you comport yourself in that Love -- matters.
Why you Love -- does not.
Bill Weintraub
© All material Copyright 2007 by Bill Weintraub. All rights reserved.
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