The importance of being out

Bill Weintraub

Bill Weintraub

The importance of being out


Hi Guys

Recently a guy named John submitted this post for Frot Club Colorado:

DENVER Looking for long-term friend into frotting

I'm interested in a monogamous and intimate friendship with another masculine guy (who I can call my very own best buddy) who is strictly into frotting.

As part of developing this friendship, I hope that we could do other masculine activities including wrestling, hiking, biking, hunting, going off-road, camping, and similar activities. I'm not out and hope you are not also.

The kind of guy I am looking for is someone who finds trust and respect very important elements in our friendship. I hope you are not looking for hook-ups, but rather that we enjoy a friendship that would develop into a deeper intimate relationship based on the above activities that we share.

If this sounds like you, and you are not into anything else, but enjoy this type of friendship that turns into a very intimate, male bonding experience, where we enjoy a very close and discrete friendship, email me.


I wrote back to John and told him his post was excellent.

However, I said, regarding this:

I'm not out and hope you are not also.

John, as you know if you've read Sex Between Men: An Activity, Not a Condition, we don't encourage Men to identify as "gay" -- or as "straight."

But we do encourage men to be open and honest about their affectional and sexual interest in other Men.

To not do that is to encourage two lies:

  1. The heterosexist lie that "real" men aren't attracted to "real" men.

  2. The analist lie that only "gay" males are attracted to other males; and that all of those males -- do anal.

    And are promiscuous and effeminate.

Both heterosexism and analism are lies.

Both are by-products of heterosexualization;

And both are lies.

What's needed now is for Men like yourself to "come out" -- as the sort of Man that you are.

Otherwise, those two lies will continue to rule.

And, to be frank, unless you and many other guys do that -- you'll have a very hard time either finding or holding a partner.

So -- The Man2Man Alliance is about cultural change.

The only way to effect that change is for Men like yourself to speak up -- openly and honestly -- about the sort of Men you are.

And are not.

Bill Weintraub

John wrote back to me, saying

Thanks Bill.

Go ahead and take out that statement about not being out. And also about needing to be discrete. I'm about being honest and open about my relationship with guys. If it turns out to be something worth investing in, I will.


"I'm about being honest and open about my relationship with guys."

Guys, John's right about that.

It's the right way to go.

And really it's the only way to go.

It's the way I've lived my own life.

And ultimately it's a winning strategy and the only winning strategy.

This is how John's new post reads:

DENVER for masculine and monogamous frot friendship

I'm interested in a monogamous and intimate friendship with another masculine guy (who I can call my very own best buddy) who is strictly into frotting.

As part of developing this friendship, I hope that we could do other masculine activities including wrestling, hiking, biking, hunting, going off-road, camping, and similar activities.

The kind of guy I am looking for is someone who finds trust and respect very important elements in our friendship. I hope you are not looking for hook-ups, but rather that we enjoy a friendship that would develop into a deeper intimate relationship based on the above activities that we share.

If this sounds like you, and you are not into anything else, but enjoy this type of friendship that turns into a very intimate, male bonding experience, where we enjoy a very close friendship, email me.

You see, it's basically the same post.

But it doesn't condemn John and his hoped-for buddy -- to a life of evasions and lies.

To a life of cowardice.

Because cowardice is never a winning strategy.

Being out, open, and above board about your life is, as I said before, a winning strategy and the only winning strategy.

Now -- how many of you are following that strategy?

Well, so far as I know, only Warrior Man Brian Hulme, who frequently posts on the site, is "out" not only as a guy who's into other guys, but as a member of The Man2Man Alliance and what it stands for.

And I don't mean just on the net.

I mean that when he gets a telephone call from someone from his former and very anti-Man church, this is what he says:

Hi Warrior Bill, guess what just happened to me, well, I had a 'phone call from Jenny B (her of The Church) she had quite a lot to say, I won't go into details but it seems things are going down not as many attending etc, also would I consider going?

Well I told Jenny, that I would not because the life I want, that is being with a Man, and what the Church teaches, are too far apart;

but I can have that, be with a Man, and still be a Christian.

Then she reminded me of the fellowship of the Church and how I could have that again. Well, that may be true but as I told her I already have and enjoy the fellowship of The Man2Man Alliance. You know what? I feel that I not only have everything that I need spiritually (without the Church or attending it) but I have a better, closer relationship to God, that is The Warrior God.

That relationship is more personal, because when I pray it is The Warrior God and Me and not The Church in between, so will I be going back? Only if I can have a lift there in a space shuttle.

With Warrior Love


That's what I mean by being "out."

Telling people in the real world -- in this case, a member of your former church -- that the Life you want is Being with a Man;

and that you find the Fellowship you need within The Man2Man Alliance.

And that without the church, you actually are experiencing a better relationship with your God, who is The Warrior God.

That's being out:

Telling folks that Yes, you're a Man who's into other Men, but that you don't do anal and you're not promiscuous -- and that that's who you are.

And that there's an organization for Men like yourselves, it's called The Man2Man Alliance, and -- here's its website:

So -- you guys need to recognize that the "gay" community, by following a forceful, clear, and consistent program of telling its members to "come out, come out, come out," has been very successful;

and that if you guys, instead of lurking and jerking on the net for the past decade, had been coming out, and presenting yourselves to your fellow Men as an alternative to the "gay" community, your situation today would be very different.

As it is, your situation today is terrible.

The "gay" community -- and from the public's point of view, the male part of that community is what we call the analist community -- is constantly in the news.

And the news is usually very positive.

For example, a few days back the NY Times had a front page story about Marine recruiters visiting a "gay" community center in Oklahoma.

The only people who showed up to talk to them were Women -- but -- the die has been cast.

Analism in the military is on its way.

And you have nothing to say about it.

So -- You need to start coming out.

You need to come out.

Otherwise, your lives will not change for the better --

and will almost certainly get worse.

Regional Chapters would give you some support in that coming out.

But -- ultimately, coming out is a one-on-one endeavor.

You tell family, you tell friends, you tell colleagues.

That's what you do.

Ultimately, you'll be a better person -- a better Man -- for having done so.

And really, if you won't do that, the proper name for your website should be the Coward2Coward Alliance.

Because the shitfaeries do it.

They come out.

And if you won't do it, you're in no position to claim any sort of superiority.

Or even parity.

Are you?

Now -- what about if you're straight-identified and in a male-female marriage?

Well, let's begin at the beginning.

Feminism was supposed to be about giving Women equal rights and opportunities with Men.

It was NOT supposed to be about -- at least not in theory -- forcing Men into permanent submission to Women.

Yet when I talk with married Men, they'll say -- I have to meet my wife's needs.

And I'll say -- Okay -- but what about your needs?


Recently I wrote to one of our married guys, and asked if he'd looked at struggling with a lust for other men.

He answered,

Bill, I did scan your post on lust, but I have not been struggling with guilt during the years since I began to self-identify as bi

To which I said:


But what I was trying to do in my reply to struggling with a lust for other men -- was provide support for guys like yourself -- as opposed to what you hear in articles like the one from the NY Times which is cited in my reply, in which "bi," if it exists at all, is a tiny minority within the LGBT minority.

And I was contrasting that with the view of the ancient world, in which ALL MEN had Male Lovers.

Once again, my correspondent answered,

No, I don't feel guilt.

To which I said:

I understand.

But what I was trying to get at in my reply was the huge cultural disconnect between us and the ancients.

So I was less concerned with guilt, than with showing all our guys that at one time, male-male / male-female was the cultural norm.

Because that's what my work is about -- culture.

And the way it shapes and governs -- desire.


I'm talking about the cultural governance of desire.

One culture views your desire for male-male as odd.

Another views it as normal.

Zeus and his wife Hera on Olympos with the other Gods
Zeus's Male Lover Ganymedes stands between them

That *cultural* difference -- between the Times' view of "bi" as cultural oddity -- and the ancient view of male-male / male-female as cultural norm -- impacts your life very directly.

Because -- given that it's the Times' view which prevails -- it makes it next to impossible for you to find a partner.

And guys, that's just the Truth.

So long as "bi" is regarded as an oddity -- you're an oddity.

And who wants to be with an oddity?

The only way to change that -- is for you to come out.

So -- this is a question of norms and cultural norms.

To the ancients, male-male / male-female was the norm.

In our culture, it's an oddity.

Same with anal.

Our culture now refers to anal as "sex," thus making it normative.

The ancients never did that.

Rather, they said things like

Thou dost rouse lust by many a trick, when there is no need, using men as women

Xenophon. Memorabilia. 2.1.30

They made very clear that "using men as women" was shameful and wrong.

NOT -- having a Male Lover -- that was Virtuous, Right -- and indeed Holy:

There is no Valour more respected by the Gods than this which comes of Manly Love.

Plato. Symposium. 180b

So -- in the ancient world, male-male / male-female was normative -- anal wasn't.

In our world, anal's normative -- and "bi" isn't.

That's what has to change.

And until it changes -- your lives are going to be HELLISH.

I guarantee it.

Because there's no way around it.

If anal's the norm and you won't do anal -- there's something wrong with you.

And if there's something wrong with you -- you'll be treated accordingly.

Same with "bi."

If "bi" is weird -- and you're "bi" -- you'll be treated accordingly.

So -- you have a dilemma.

Because you CANNOT CHANGE EITHER PERCEPTION -- that anal's normal and "bi" is weird -- by being closeted.

You have to COME OUT.

Until you do -- NOTHING WILL CHANGE.

You'll have great trouble finding a partner.

And on those rare occasions that you do, what you find will have analist and/or heterosexist mind-sets.

He'll be promiscuous, he'll favor effeminacy, and at heart, no matter what he says, he'll be dismissive of True Man2Man.

And just try building a relationship on that.

Can't be done.

Your cowardice will get you nowhere.

You'll spend the rest of your life going in circles -- as the result of societal assumptions which you're too cowardly to challenge.

You have to Come Out.

John -- the guy in Colorado -- did the right thing by changing his post.

Like he said,

I'm about being honest and open about my relationship with guys. If it turns out to be something worth investing in, I will.

"I'm about being honest and open about my relationship with guys."

"honest and open about my relationship with guys"

"honest and open"

That's the way to go.

Once again:

In the ancient world, male-male / male-female was normative -- anal wasn't.

In our world, anal's normative -- and "bi" isn't.

Isn't that interesting?

I wonder how many of you could tell me WHY that is.

Not very many, I venture.

Maybe one or two.

Here's a hint:

It has to do with the definition of Man, of Manhood and Manliness.

It has to do with the *cultural* perception of what a Man is.

Right now, the people shaping that perception, that definition of Man -- are your ENEMIES.

You have NO SAY.



It's as Warrior NW said in EROS and AGGRESSION:

The fags and fems and Feminists have done the defining for us. Rather, they have RE-defined the terms for us. And they are wrong. And we are forced to live with those fucked up neo-definitions of male-male eros.


The fags, fems, and feminists have done the defining for you.

And you're forced to live with their fucked-up-the-butt definitions of male-male --

Of Male-Male Eros;

And Male-Male Aggression.

Now --

Please please please do tell me how anything anywhere will ever change -- if you remain silent?

C'mon -- I'm waiting to hear from you.

What's your answer?

You don't have one, do you?

You don't have a plan, you don't have a strategy, you have nothing.

Yet you could have everything.

But you'll have to FIGHT for it.


Who do you want to define your Life?

And thus control your Life.


Or the people who hate you?

"You're not really gay if you don't get fucked" is a both false and fatal sentiment.

Yet it's pushed incessantly -- just like dealers push crack cocaine.

When you're faced with something which is false and fatal and being foisted upon you by buttfuckers, shitfaeries, and other fools -- you need to react forcefully.



In the protection of your Manhood.

In the safeguarding of your Life.

Your one sweet and precious Manly Life.

God gave you Balls.

Use them.


C O M ExO U T.

Bill Weintraub

October 12, 2011

© All material Copyright 2011 by Bill Weintraub. All rights reserved.

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It was my own innate understanding of the essentially Combative and Aggressive nature of Men, and my own instinctual relating of that to the testicles, which produced those fantasies and gave them so much power in my life.

In this Dialogue, written in the first century AD by Lucian but presenting an imagined conversation between the *sixth century BC* Athenian lawgiver Solon and a Scythian visitor to Athens named Anacharsis, we get some idea of what that training was like -- starting with Athenian kids, and then progressing to Spartan youth:

Anacharsis: And another thing, my dear Solon, why are those young men acting in this way? Look, some of them are grappling and tripping each other, others are choking their friends and twisting their limbs, rolling about in the mud and wallowing like pigs. But before they began to do this, I noticed they first took off their clothes, then put oil on themselves, and in a peaceful fashion took turns in rubbing each other. But now, experiencing some emotion I do not understand, they have lowered their heads and are crashing into each other, and butting their heads together like rams! And look! There is one who has just seized the other by the legs and thrown him down; then he flopped on him and did not allow him to get up, but shoved him down into the mud. And now he is finally twisting his legs around the other person's waist and choking him with his arm under his throat. The other is slapping him on the shoulder, trying to ask him, I suppose, not to choke him to death. They do not avoid getting covered with dirt even to save the oil, but on the contrary wipe it off, and smearing themselves with mud and rivers of perspiration they make themselves ridiculous, in my opinion, by sliding in and out of each other's hands like eels.

Others are acting in the same way in the open part of the courtyard. However, these are not in the mud, but they have this deep sand in the pit which they sprinkle on themselves and each other, just like roosters, so that they cannot break out of their grasp, I imagine, since the sand decreases the slipperiness and offers a surer grip on a dry skin.

Others also covered with dust are standing up straight and striking and kicking each other. See that one there! Poor fellow, he seems to be ready to spit out a mouthful of teeth considering how full of blood and sand his mouth is; he has got a blow to the jaw, as you can see for yourself. But the official there does not separate them and stop the fight -- at least I assume he is an official from his scarlet cloak. On the contrary he encourages them and cheers the one who struck that blow.

All around different people are all exercising: some raise their knees as if running, although they remain in the same place, and as they jump up they kick the air.

What I want to know is, what reason do they have for doing this? It seems to me these actions are almost insane, and there is no one who can easily persuade me that people who act like this have not lost all their senses.

[Solon explains that customs differ from one land to another. He then explains to Anacharsis what is happening.]

Solon: This place, dear Anacharsis, is what we call a gymnasion and it and is sacred to Lykeian Apollo. You can see his statue, leaning against a stele, holding his bow in his left hand. His right arm is bent above his head as if the artist were showing the God resting, as if he had completed some laborious task. As for those exercises in the nude, the one done in the mud is called wrestling. Those in the dust are also wrestling. Those who strike each other standing upright we call pankratiasts. We have other athletic events: we have contests in boxing, diskos, and the long jump, and the winner is considered superior to his fellows and takes the prize.

Anacharsis: These prizes of yours now; what are they?

Solon: At Olympia there is a crown of wild olive; at Isthmia, one of pine; at Nemea, one woven of celery; at the Pythian Games, laurel berries sacred to the god, and here at home at the Panathenaic Games, oil from olive trees which grow in the sacred precincts. What are you laughing at, Anacharsis? Do these prizes seem valueless to you?

[Solon explains the symbolic value of the prizes, justifies the pursuit of athletics, the education of the citizens. Then Anacharsis asks Solon to explain the government of Athens.]

Solon: It is not easy, my friend, to explain everything at once in concise form, but if you will take one thing at a time you will learn everything about our belief in the gods, as well as our attitude toward parents, marriage, or anything else.

I will now explain our theory about young men and how we treat them from the time when they begin to know the difference between right and wrong and are entering manhood and sustaining hardships, so that you may learn why we require them to undergo these exercises and force them to subject their bodies to toil, not just because of the athletic games and the prizes they may win there, for few of them have the ability to do that, but so that they may try to gain a greater good for the entire city and for themselves. For there is another contest set up for all good citizens and the crown is not made of pine nor of wild olive nor of celery, but is one which includes all of man's happiness, that is to say, freedom for each person individually and for the state in general: wealth, glory, pleasure in our traditional feast days, having the entire family safe from harm, and in a word, to have the best of all the blessings one could have from the gods.

All this happiness is woven into the crown to which I referred and is acquired in the contest to which these exhausting exercises lead.

[Solon goes into more detail about the training of young men and about the responsibility of the citizens.]

Solon: As for physical training, which you particularly wanted to hear about, we proceed as follows. When the boys reach an age when they are no longer soft and uncoordinated, we strip them naked. We do this because first, we think they should get used to the weather, learning to live with different seasons, so they are not bothered by the heat nor do they yield to the cold. Then we massage them with olive oil and condition the skin. For since we see that leather which is softened by olive oil does not easily crack and is much stronger, even though it is not alive, why should we not think that live bodies would benefit from oil? Next we have thought up different kinds of athletics and have appointed coaches for each type. We teach one how to box, another how to compete in the pankration, so that they can become used to hard work, to stand up to blows face to face, and not to yield through fear of injury.

This creates two valuable traits in our young men: it makes them brave in the face of danger and unsparing of their bodies, and it also makes them strong and vigorous. Those who wrestle and push against each other learn how to fall safely and spring up nimbly, to endure pushing, grappling, twisting, and choking, and to be able to lift their opponent off the ground. They are not learning useless skills but they get the one thing which is the first and most important thing in life: through this training their bodies become stronger and capable of enduring pain. There is another thing too which is not unimportant. From this training they acquire skills which they may need some day in war. For it is clear that if a man so trained grapples with an enemy, he will trip and throw him more quickly and if he is thrown he will know how to regain his feet as easily as possible. For we prepare our men, Anacharsis, for the supreme contest, war, and we expect to have much better soldiers out of young men who have had this training, that is, the previous conditioning and training of naked bodies, which makes them not only stronger and healthier, more agile and fit, but also causes them to outweigh their opponents.

You can see, I should think, the results of this, what they are like when armed, or even without weapons how they would strike terror in their enemies. Our troops are not fat, pale, and useless nor are they white and scrawny ... enervated by lying in the shade, simultaneously shivering and streaming with rivers of sweat, gasping beneath their helmets, particularly if the sun, as now, is burning with noontime heat. What use could people be who get thirsty and cannot endure dust; soldiers who panic if they see blood, who die of terror before they come close enough to throw their spears or to close with the enemy? But our troops have skin of high color, darkened by the sun, and faces like real men; they display great vigor, fire, and virility. They glow with good health, and are neither shriveled skeletons nor excessively heavy, but they have been carved to perfect symmetry; they have used up and sweated off useless and excess flesh, and that which is left is strong, supple, and free, and they vigorously keep this healthy condition. For just as the winnowers do with wheat, so our athletes do with their bodies, removing the chaff and the husks and leaving the grain in a clean pile.

Through training like this a man can't avoid being healthy and can stand up indefinitely under stress. Such a man would sweat only after some time, and he would seldom be seen to be ill. Suppose someone were to take two torches and throw one into the grain and the other into the straw and chaff -- you see, I am returning to the figure of the winnower. The straw, I think, would burst into flames much more quickly, but the grain would burn slowly with no large flames blazing up nor would it burn all at once, but it would smoulder slowly and eventually it too would be burned.

Neither disease nor fatigue could easily attack and overcome such a body or easily defeat it. For it has good inner resources which defend it against attacks from outside, so as not to let them in, neither does it admit the sun or the cold to its hurt. To avoid yielding to hardships, great vigor springs up within, something prepared long in advance and held in reserve for time of need. This vigor fills up at once and waters the body in a crisis and makes it strong for a long time. For the previous training in bearing strain and hardship does not weaken their strength but increases it, and when you fan it the fire burns stronger.

We train them to run, getting them to endure long distances as well as speeding them up for swiftness in the sprints. This running is not done on a firm springy surface but in deep sand, where it is not easy to place one's foot forcefully and not to push off from it, since the foot slips against the yielding sand. We train them to jump over ditches, if they have to, or any other obstacles, and in addition we train them to do this even when they carry lead weights as large as they can hold. They also compete in the javelin throw for distance. In the gymnasium you also saw another athletic implement, bronze, circular, like a tiny shield with no bar or straps. You handled it as it lay there and expressed the view that it was heavy and hard to hold on to because it was so smooth. Well, they throw this up in the air both high and out, competing to see who can throw the longest and pass beyond the others. This exercise strengthens the shoulders and builds up the arms and legs.

As for this mud and dust, which originally seemed so amusing to you, my friend, listen while I tell you why it is used. First, their fall will not be on unyielding dirt but they will fall safely on soft ground. Next, their slipperiness has to be greater when they sweat in the mud. You likened them to eels, but the facts are neither useless nor humorous: it adds not a little to strength of the sinews when they are forced to hold firmly to people in this condition when they are trying to slip away. Do not think it is easy to pick up a sweaty man in the mud, covered with oil and trying to get out of your arms. All these skills, as I said earlier, are useful in combat, if it were necessary to pick up a wounded friend and carry him easily to safety or to seize an enemy and bring him back in your arms. And for this reason we train them beyond what is necessary, so that when they have practiced hard tasks they may do smaller ones with much greater facility.

We believe the dust is used for the opposite reason than the oil is, that is, so that a competitor may not slip out of his opponent's grasp. For after they have been trained in the mud to hold fast to something which is escaping from them because of its slipperiness, they then practice escaping out of the arms of their opponent, no matter how impossibly firm they may be held. Furthermore when this dust is used liberally it checks the perspiration and makes their strength last longer and furnishes protection against harm from drafts which otherwise attack the body when the pores are open. Besides, the dust rubs off the accumulation of dirt and makes the skin gleam.

I should dearly like to stand one of those white-skinned fellows who live in the shade beside one of our boys who work out in the Lykeion, and after I had washed off the dust and the mud, ask you which one you would like to resemble. For I know that you would choose at first glance, without hesitation, even without putting either through any tests, the one which is solid and hard rather than soft, weak, and pale, because what little blood he has has been withdrawn into the interior of his body.

[Anacharsis then ridicules the idea that athletic training could be useful in war. Why not save your strength, he asks. Solon explains that strength cannot be saved like a bottle of wine; it must be constantly used.]

Anacharsis: I just don't understand what you said, Solon. It is too intellectual for me and requires a sharp mind and keen insight. But above all, tell me this, why, in the Olympic Games and at Isthmia and Delphi and elsewhere, where so many competitors, you say, assemble to see these young men compete, you never have a contest with weapons but you bring them before the spectators all naked and exhibit them getting kicked and punched, and then, if they have won, give them berries and wild olives? It would be worth knowing why you do this.

Solon: My dear Anacharsis, we do this because we think that their enthusiasm for athletics will increase if they see that those who excel at them are honored and are presented to crowds of Greeks by heralds. Because they are to appear stripped before so many people, they try to get into good condition, so that when they are naked they will not be ashamed, and each one works to make himself capable of winning. As for the prizes, as I said earlier, they are not insignificant: to be praised by the spectators, to be a recognized celebrity, and to be pointed out as the best of one's group. As a result of these prizes, many of the spectators who are of the right age for competition go away completely in love with courage and struggle. If someone should remove love of glory from our lives, what good would we ever achieve, Anacharsis, or who would strive to accomplish some shining deed? But now it is possible for you to imagine from these games what sort of men these would be under arms, fighting for fatherland and children and wives and temples, when they show so much desire for victory in competing for laurel berries and wild olives.

Furthermore, how would you feel if you should observe fights between quails and between roosters here among us, and see the great interest which is shown in them? Wouldn't you laugh, particularly if you should learn that we do this in accordance with our laws and all men of military age are instructed to be present and to see these birds fight until they are exhausted? But it is no laughing matter, for eagerness for danger creeps insensibly into their souls so that they try not to seem less courageous and bold than the roosters nor to give in too soon because of injury or fatigue or any other distress.

As for trying them in armed combat and seeing them receive wounds -- never! It is brutal and dreadfully wrong, and in addition it is economically unfeasible to destroy the bravest, whom we could better use against our enemies.

Since you tell me, Anacharsis, that you expect to travel to the rest of Greece, if you get to Sparta, remember not to laugh at them nor think that they have no purpose when they compete in a theater, rushing together and striking each other, fighting over a ball, or when they go into a place surrounded by water [known as Plantanistas, or Plane-Tree Grove], choose up sides, and fight as if in actual war, although as naked as we Athenians are, until one team drives the other out of the enclosure into the water, the Sons of Herakles beating the Sons of Lykurgos or vice versa; after this contest there is peace and no one would strike another.

~ translated by Sweet.

The great Greek philosophers Sokrates and Plato spent a lot of time debating and defeating the hedonists of their day.

Plato wrote three very powerful books detailing that debate, beginning with the Protagoras, continuing in the Gorgias, and culminating in the Republic, one of the most important works of Western literature.

In the Gorgias in particular, Sokrates identifies hedonism with those who in his day, engaged in anal.

And since anal was proscribed -- forbidden -- by the Greeks, he uses that fact to defeat the hedonists.

Here's the debate -- the hot-headed hedonist is a guy named Callicles, and he's debating Sokrates:

Socrates. Come now, let me tell you another parable:

Consider if each of the two lives, the temperate and the licentious, might be described by imagining that each of the two men had a number of jars; the one man has his jars sound and full, one of wine, another of honey, and a third of milk, besides others filled with other things, and the sources which fill them are scanty and difficult, and he can only obtain them with a great deal of hard toil. Well, one man, when he has taken his fill, neither draws any more nor troubles himself a jot, but remains at ease on that score. The other, in like manner, can procure sources, though not without difficulty; but his vessels are leaky and unsound, and night and day he is compelled to fill them constantly, and if he pauses for a moment, he is in an agony of extreme distress. If such is the nature of each of the two lives, do you say that the licentious man has a happier one than the orderly? Do I not convince you that the opposite is the truth?

Callicles. You do not convince me, Socrates, for the one who has filled himself has no longer any pleasure left; and this, as I was just now saying, is the life of a stone: he has neither joy nor sorrow after he is once filled; but a pleasant life consists rather in the largest possible amount of inflow.

Soc. Well then, if the the inflow be large, must not that which runs away be of large amount also, and the holes for such outflow be of great size?

Cal. Certainly.

Soc. The life which you are now depicting is not that of a dead man, or of a stone, but of a plover [a bird thought to drink and then to eject the liquid]; you mean that he is to be hungering and eating?

Cal. Yes.

Soc. And he is to be thirsting and drinking?

Cal. Yes, that is what I mean; he is to have all his desires about him, and to be able to live happily in the gratification of them.

Soc. Capital, excellent; go on as you have begun, and have no shame; I, too, must disencumber myself of shame: and first, will you tell me whether you include itching and scratching, provided you have enough of them and pass your life in scratching, in your notion of happiness?

Cal. What a strange being you are, Socrates! a regular stump-orator.

Soc. That was the reason, Callicles, why I scared Polus and Gorgias, until they were too modest to say what they thought; but you will not be too modest and will not be scared, for you are such a manly fellow. And now, answer my question.

Cal. I answer, that even the scratcher would live pleasantly.

Soc. And if pleasantly, then also happily?

Cal. To be sure.

Soc. But what if the itching is not confined to the head? Shall I pursue the question? And here, Callicles, I would have you consider how you would reply if consequences are pressed upon you, especially if in the last resort you are asked, whether the life of a catamite is not terrible, shameful, and wretched? Or would you venture to say, that they too are happy, if they only get enough of what they want?

Cal. Are you not ashamed, Socrates, of introducing such topics into the argument?

Soc. Well, my fine friend, but am I the introducer of these topics, or he who says without any qualification that all who feel pleasure in whatever manner are happy, and who admits of no distinction between good and bad pleasures? And I would still ask, whether you say that pleasure and good are the same, or whether there is some pleasure which is not a good?

~translated by Jowett and Lamb

So: Socrates asks, "Is there some pleasure which is not a good?"

And the word "catamite" in the original Greek is kinaidos, that is, one who is anally passive, and/or who participates in anal penetration.

That is, an analist.

"Is there some pleasure which is not a good?"


The life of an analist, says Sokrates, is "terrible, shameful, and wretched."

And Callicles doesn't dare disagree with him.

Because the cultural prohibition against anal is too severe.

I have no question that privately, Callicles thinks anal is okay.

That to his mind, "If it feels 'good,' do it!" and "It's all sex and it's all good!" -- are imperatives.

But he doesn't dare say so -- regarding anal.

Because again, the cultural prohibition against anal is too severe.

As it should be.

In the protection of your Manhood.

In the safeguarding of your Life. Recently I've been reading John Milton, the great English poet and defender of the Puritan and Parliamentary Revolution.

I've been reading his prose pieces -- which were written to advance that Revolutionary cause.

If you think I'm dogmatic and militant -- you should read Milton.

But his militancy helped bring about the freedoms we have today.

As Warrior Brian said to me in an email regarding the need to organize:

If an army went into battle without proper training and organisation they would lose. Historic example, in the English Civil War (1642 to 1646) the army of King Charles 1st was better organised and won most of the first battles; however Oliver Cromwell trained and organised the men fighting on Parliament's side into the New Model Army, and they won! If they had not been so organised the King would have carried on as the dictator he had been. Maybe eventually we would have got the freedoms that we enjoy now but it would have come more slowly and the monarch would have given them very grudgingly; so organisation is as you say vital to winning.

And Militancy is vital -- to organization.