Dave

Thank you!

10-3-2004

Thanks for creating this wonderful site! I'm a gay man 43 years of age. I became sexually active at 17 technically but didn't really become regularly active until my early 20's. In any event I had come to the conclusion long ago that anal was not for me. However such terms as top and bottom have been so prevalent, so pervasive that I have always been frustrated.

I have never wanted to identify as a bottom. But in situations where penetration was desired I could not top -- the idea is repugnant to me. So by default I tried bottoming from time to time. I've done it enough to know that it has no redeeming value, is not pleasurable, is messy and smelly, requires an unnatural amount of preparation, and basically serves only one person's interests -- that of the top. I'd go so far as to say that guys who are tops are some of the most selfish and controlling people around and that self-declared bottoms have a horrendous problem with low self-esteem.

I have been fortunate over the years to meet some great guys with whom I enjoyed incredibly hot j/o and frottage -- though at the time I did not know it was called frottage. I had a short 8 month relationship with a guy in the early 90's. He was the best and the sex we had was the hottest ever. We never penetrated. We were on the same wavelength because it never even was an issue we discussed. We worshipped one another's bodies and the pleasure was fantastically satisfying. Those 8 months are what I hope to experience again with someone someday. The memory of that time is so dear to me.

On the flipside - I had a gay friend ask me once what I was into. He was your cookie cutter in your face activist homo type (among other things to be fair). But he took it upon himself to be a representative of gay men and perpetuated the terribly oppressive idea that there are only two kinds of gay men -- top and bottom. I remember one day I drove him home from work and the discussion turned to relationships and sex. He asked what I was into so I told him. When my description didn't include top or bottom he asked what about anal. I said I don't like it. His response was a rude and loud 'BORING!' I was offended and attempted to explain myself but he cut me off with another 'BORING!' I felt terrible and even started to doubt myself (again). The message over the years had been loud and clear in the gay community -- "In the gay community if you don't fuck then you're bad in bed and you'll never have a boyfriend or a relationship" and my friend essentially reinforced that negative and destructive notion.

A couple of years prior to that experience I had a frank discussion of sex with a straight female friend of mine. When I told her I didn't like penetration her reply was that she couldn't imagine sex without penetration. It was an innocent remark on her part not meant to be judgmental or oppressive. She remains one of my best friends to this day. But the effect of the remark was discouraging. Most straight people just assume that gay men are imitating straight sexual intercourse by engaging in anal I suppose.

But discovering your site has given me so much hope. Thank you! I'm going to seek a relationship with someone like myself, someone who respects himself and others, someone who also loves frottage and the great mutual pleasure it brings two men. All other men can take a hike, lol.

I developed a theory years ago which I have not shared with many others for concern of rejection basically. But in this case I feel I am in friendly and receptive territory; I lived among many gay men in the city for 11 years and there was always talk about relationships and questions about why gay relationships so seldom lasted. Based on my own experience I theorized that they don't last because when two men engage in a relationship and their most intimate time together is actually an act of brutality and oppression then how can love and mutual respect possibly last? Anal kills relationships!

I have a personal add posted at which I get frequent hits. I work out and am fortunate enough to have a descent body and it photographs fairly well so the pics attract some attention. I have a description of what I like (j/o and nipple play -- I have to rewrite it to include frottage) yet I get lots of hits asking me if I'm top or bottom! I also get hits from guys who tell me that they are tops or bottoms. All that mail goes right into the trash! In the hopes that guys will occasionally read my profile I'm going to include the address to your website, if you don't mind. I think frottage is well worth promoting, as is your website.

Thank you again!

Dave

Bill Weintraub

Re: Thank you!

10-3-2004

Hey

Thank you Dave!

Guys, every once in a while a new person joins the club and moves it to a new level.

For example:

Ben Stockpeck was the first person to post on the site about the many negative aspects of anal penetration.

David McQuarrie then came along and moved that to a new level by going around the web and posting the message: Anal Sex -- It Kills!

In the meantime, Don Frazier was focusing our attention on the beauties of Frot itself, in particular those of what he calls "male anatomical -- that is, phallic -- coupling" and the shared and "unencumbered" ejaculative flow of the male-male orgasm.

While Mart Finn was talking about the power of cocktocock and helping us understand the difference between transactional and interactional male-male sex.

Now Dave has appeared and, in, just a couple paragraphs, brought our attention to something else.

And that is, the effect of anal on relationships.

Here's what he says:

I have never wanted to identify as a bottom. But in situations where penetration was desired I could not top -- the idea is repugnant to me. So by default I tried bottoming from time to time. I've done it enough to know that it has no redeeming value, is not pleasurable, is messy and smelly, requires an unnatural amount of preparation, and basically serves only one persons interests -- that of the top. I'd go so far as to say that guys who are tops are some of the most selfish and controlling people around and that self-declared bottoms have a horrendous problem with low self-esteem.

Then he adds,

I developed a theory years ago which I have not shared with many others for concern of rejection basically. But in this case I feel I am in friendly and receptive territory; I lived among many gay men in the city for 11 years and there was always talk about relationships and questions about why gay relationships so seldom lasted. Based on my own experience I theorized that they don't last because when two men engage in a relationship and their most intimate time together is actually an act of brutality and oppression then how can love and mutual respect possibly last? Anal kills relationships!

[emphases mine]

"Anal kills relationships!"

Wow.

What's interesting is that just yesterday, and completely independent of Dave, Tom down in LA had this to say on the board:

And it is SOOOOO easy to hear the negative connotation that "Bottom" has. EVEN THOUGH.... to play the anal game.... one can't BE A TOP, UNLESS THERE'S A BOTTOM. It's so clear to me that there must be BOTH for it to work. Yet, one is held in MUCH LOWER REGARD!!! How fucked up is that?

The answer is very and literally.

So both Tom and Dave are pointing to the low regard and self-esteem of bottoms, and Dave is saying -- look, inevitably that takes a toll on a relationship.

And clearly that's true.

When a couple's most intimate moments are built around the artificial, gruesome, and brutal act of anal penetration, the effect has to be destructive -- and dramatically so.

Anal sex -- it kills!

Anal kills relationships!

I'll have a lot more to say about this in an upcoming policy paper.

For now all I'll say is thank you so very much to both Tom and Dave for posting on this board and in so doing helping crystallize my thoughts and, I have no doubt, those of a lot of other guys.

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