Still sparring



Still sparring


This is a post about my history as a guy into frot.

My first good frot experience was when I was 21. He was 17, visiting the States from Finland. We were at a friend's house; this friend had a crush on both of us, and we ended up stealing away from the party and rolling around on his parent's bed. I had no idea that was even possible, we didn't use lube or anything, and we rolled all over the bed, rubbing our bodies together until we were almost on fire. I've never had any other sex with that much raw urgency and intensity. I'll never forget it, although I'll probably never see him again.

My last sex was a month+ ago. He hasn't returned my calls since. I'm happy he was so accomodating of me, but he wanted to shove dicks in butts, and he sucked me off and I remembered why I hate that, because you're just lying there, and it takes forever to orgasm, and your cock is ultra-sensitive afterward. I'm pretty sure he thinks I'm boring in bed, which doesn't affect me, but it hurts knowing that all he was after was a good screw. I like to think the rest of me isn't so interchangeable.

He was the first person I ever told about what happens when I fuck another guy -- I lose some respect for that guy. He laughed, but I mean it, it's true. Something goes off in my brain, and the person I'm fucking loses status in my mind.

For a while I was convinced that being the 'top' in anal sex was the greatest thing, but since then I've realized I only thought so because the sensation on my dick was so pleasurable. Apart from that, you'd be better jerking off.

I played a drinking game with a bunch of straight friends recently, and we were all liquored up and asking each other about pretty sensitive topics. It was my turn to receive a question, and my (female) friend of many years asked, "So -- are you a top or a bottom?"

It was creepy to realize that everyone at the table knew that terminology. How did they find out?! It was creepier that everyone assumed I had to be one, or the other. If the terms 'top' and 'bottom' have seeped into straight culture, and if everyone thinks that's just how it's done -- holes are there to be filled -- then it's a sad time to be a guy into frot.

I'm really glad I found this site, and I'm glad I'm not alone. I never thought of myself as a 'guy into frot' until I found this site, and then everything clicked and made sense. The warrior connection is very meaningful to me, I've taken up combat sports (hapkido, fencing) over the years and I never understood why -- or why some things have some deeper masculine meaning to me, like the first time I shaved my head, which gave me a surge of incredible manly awareness. I was high on that feeling for days. I've never grown my hair out since.

The apex of the journey was when I took up boxing last year, the day after my 27th birthday. I'd flirted with boxing in the past, but when I think back on the year 2002, all I can remember is trying to keep my energy level high, and my schedule free, so I could go to the gym five days a week. I loved that sport so much, though I started comparatively late in life, and it took more than a year for me to get good. I love the sensation of a wrapped, gloved hand punching through something. I love the smells, the leather, all the armor you wear in the ring (headgear and mouthpiece), the blood. I like how the gym didn't have daintly little towels to wipe sweat off of equipment. I took boxing very seriously (it ruined the rest of my life) and even though I wasn't successful at it in any measurable way, that sport gave me everything. I feel like a more complete person now, than before I started.

I had a relationship with boxing. There were good days and bad ones. It replaced my sex drive; when I came home, I wouldn't have enough energy to jerk off, I'd go weeks without it. Probably changing my diet and losing weight to fight in a lower weight class had an effect on my sex drive, too.

Sparring was my source of intimacy. Sparring is the most incredible thing, and I love and fear it. When the bell rings, and the round starts, you touch gloves with your opponent. Then you fight. Often you end up standing really close together, or clinching (holding each other, wrestling for an opportunity to break away). When the rounds ended, we'd always hit our gloves together in a sort of salute, and sometimes we'd be smiling or we'd put our arms around each other. The bond was so powerful. Sparring is the best connection I've ever had with another man, and being there was like belonging to a secret brotherhood, like everyone had discovered some great, vast secret that came straight out of our hearts, and we were celebrating it every round.

I sparred a lot, probably too much. I tried not to complain, even when it got really bad, when I left the gym with my brain buzzing and feeling distant from myself, irritable, slow and distant from my personality, in a scary state of mind where everything is totally uninteresting. No one talks about brain damage. You either accept the risks, or you leave, which is only fair.

I stopped going to the gym because my brain couldn't stand the abuse. There are guys who can spar a dozen rounds every day and step out of the ring like nothing happened, but getting hit in the head would always fuck me up really quickly. I had some dramatic examples of this -- one minute I'd be stepping around and throwing punches from great angles, then my opponent would get a few head shots in and, right away, I couldn't think. The rest of the round would be a blur of masochism, not seeing punches coming until it was too late.

I miss sparring so much. I can't explain this to anyone, it's like an addiction I can't recover from even though I've stopped. When I'm falling asleep, I'm seeing visions of sparring. Riding the bus, or waiting in line, eating lunch outside, I'm always sparring.

It's been three months since I last sparred, and now I've discovered there are some other boxers at work, and we're talking about starting something up. It's like standing in front of sacred fire, agonizing over whether I can reach into the burning core of it again. I'm still working out, in fact I'm in great shape, I do a boxer's workout 5 days a week -- run, jump rope, shadowbox, hit the heavy bag, situps, fingertip / clapping pushups. I'm proud to keep my body in this condition (it's nice being able to sprint when I need to) but of course, the thrill isn't the same.

I think there were a lot of innuendos at the gym, but I can never be sure. I definitely wasn't "out" to anyone there, people constantly assume I'm straight because i'm not gay-acting. I wish I'd found this site earlier, because if I'd been open to the possibility of having a frot experience with someone there, I bet it would have happened. There was one guy who approached me in the locker room, early on when I was beginning. He's a pro fighter, and we're built similarly, tall and thin. We started talking, and showing each other tattoos. When we were touching each other's skin, I started to feel this strong respect and attraction for him. There was something unusually intimate about our conversation. I still have those feelings when I think about him, even though I was too shy to approach him and try to take things to a higher level while I was still going there. I doubt my judgment too much to know when people are interested in me. Sometimes I wonder if it's worth going back to the gym and talking to him again, maybe it'd be easier now that I'm not an active part of gym life -- otherwise it could be >awkward< if we did mess around and then had to face each other there, day after day. I'm not after a quick lay; that kind of tension isn't worth it.

I really want to find a mate who I'm on the same level with. The gay scene has given me next to nothing, and I don't consider myself a part of it. I don't "identify" myself as anything, I am exactly what I am. When I moved to this city, I had awesome dreams that I'd find someone who I could be with for a long time, who wasn't drinking booze into oblivion, or getting fat, or obsessing over the new goddamn Cher wardrobe, and now I'm worrying this is never going to happen. Most of my friends are straight, so I'm not exactly meeting a lot of eligible prospects. The truth is that it's rare that I meet anyone through the gay crowd who I have any interest in, because that whole scene seems so fake and meaningless and contrived, sometimes I can't stand it. People make themselves fake to belong to it.

Thanks for reading what I have to say... There are so many good posts in this forum already, some of them I've read many times, so I wanted to give something back...

Bill Weintraub


Re: Still sparring

hey spike

thank you for this terrific post

you're right that the terminology of tops and bottoms has slipped into mainstream nongay culture, and that "straight people" who want to be supportive of gay men will frequently ask whether you're a top or a bottom

so one of the most important things you can do is explain to them that you're neither, that you don't anal penetration and that there's a very large and growing community of men who have sex with men who don't do anal either and who reject anal and promiscuity

in that respect, this is NOT a sad time to be a guy into frot

this is a great time to be a guy into frot, because our numbers are growing and thanks primarily to the men on this site, we're entering the consciousness of mainstream America

and you can help by simply speaking the truth of your lives to everyone you can

and referring them to our sites:

re sparring

while we do encourage people to learn a martial art, we don't want people to get injured

and i want to emphasize that it's not necessary or likely that you'll get hurt in an ordinary kenpo or tae kwon do dojo (school)

what spike is talking about is different

he's taken up "traditional" boxing and was sparring a lot

that's analogous to taking up kick-boxing and becoming semi-pro, as my lover Patrick did

that's a full-contact sport, and chances are you'll get hurt, as Patrick was when he fought Paco

he lost some hearing in that fight

Patrick doesn't regret that, but he'd be the first to tell you that being a kick-boxer means doing a lot of roadwork and getting hit a lot

and it's absolutely not necessary to do that to gain skills and confidence from a martial art like kenpo karate

it's useful to learn that you can take a punch

but you don't have to take hundreds of head shots -- that's not necessary, only a few people are put together physically to withstand that, and most others choose a far more moderate level of contact

finally, spike is right that if you open yourself up to the possibility of a frot relationship with another man, even if he's straight-identified, it's likely to happen

i can't promise that, but virtually all straight-identified men have same-sex needs and desires

and once you start thinking outside the box of gay / straight, you're far more likely to connect

one more reason dudes that




Hi Spike,

I saw your story on the Cockrub site. I was interested to read your experience with boxing and it resonated with my own experience when I was a fighter some years ago. I was a pro fighter for a couple of years before I retired "unhurt". Maybe I was lucky, maybe I was clever, who knows! Pro fighters have one advantage over amateurs - they have a manager, if they have any sense. And the manager is there to take care of you and see to it that you fight the right guys. While he is honestly looking out for you, you should not get hurt. Least not hurt too much. I should say not more than you want to get hurt!

Like you, I used to get a real erotic thrill in the ring. Not all fighters feel it that way. Most have other much more animalistic sensations related to the fight itself. And to bring erotic thrill up against an animalistic desire to hurt is a great contest in itself. Both are important, but the erotic is much more satisfying.

My experience in the fight game tells me that many, but not all, fighters have an erotic response to being in the ring. We use that as part of the fight in dealing with the opponent. It varies with the type of opponent and the way the fight goes. Maybe I'll tell you about it some time.

I enjoy frot and this site. Who knows, maybe I loved the fight game for that reason or vice versa. Its all in a man's dick and how it connects to his balls.


Re: Still sparring


I didn't know Patrick lost some of his hearing in that fight. It's sad to learn that... I knew the risks when I was sparring, and it goes back to the whole "playing with fire" analogy for me -- because I need to keep my hearing intact (I compose music for money) and also need to keep my head clear, and keep my brains from being rattled too much (I also write computer code for money). There are many risks involved in contact sports.

But how I wish a year of martial sports was a compulsory requirement for everyone. The world would be a much nicer place. You don't have to sustain injuries to become a confident warrior; there are lots of fighting sports to choose from, and a good martial arts program (for example) won't force you to spar until years have passed and your skills are honed.

There's a growing movement of people (men and women) who train as boxers but don't do any sparring or fighting. These people get plenty of respect from me, since the workout itself is hard. It's also good to get the technique down, and know how to hit. It will make you a more confident person.

Anyway, this is sort of a follow-up post: I've found a new boxing club, which is close to my workplace. It's not as hardcore as the gym I belonged to before, but it feels good to be around other boxers again, it's so inspiring. I want some more fights before I quit boxing for good, and I hope my will is strong enough to endure. If I can't stop sparring, then I can at least face it down.

Bill Weintraub

Re: Still sparring


thank you spike for these terrific posts and these words of wisdom:

But how I wish a year of martial sports was a compulsory requirement for everyone. The world would be a much nicer place. You don't have to sustain injuries to become a confident warrior; there are lots of fighting sports to choose from, and a good martial arts program (for example) won't force you to spar until years have passed and your skills are honed.

that's right

in point of fact, you're never forced to spar

that's your choice

and even then you determine the level of contact

so spike's experience in what sounds like a hard-core boxing gym is no reason not to do a martial art

re Patrick and his fight with Paco

that fight was bloodier and more violent than was the norm for that gym, which was a full-contact kick-boxing gym

Paco and his buddies were visiting and were adepts at Gracie Ju-jitsu, a very aggressive and effective style of fighting which, years after Patrick and Paco's fight, received a lot of publicity

in any case, Patrick doesn't regret his partial hearing loss from the fight

to Patrick it was a trade-off:

i wasn't wearing a groin cup because i had been doing kata that day...not fighting...he wasn't wearing one either and his cock was hard and erect under my own was a physical battle to be sure, but it also had a potent sexuality...and both of us were fully aware of it...a primeval battle between 2 warriors...both young...both muscular... both bleeding...both so vital and alive...both leaders...both potent...semi-nude...bare chest to bare chest...locked in battle...clashing in mind, body and sexuality... semi-nude...bare chest to bare chest...pecs, abs, arms, legs and even cocks vying for one moment's advantage to score the win... in full view of their women...

that was a special day for Patrick (and probably Paco too) and always will be

but that doesn't mean that Patrick before or since has gone out of his way to look for bloody fights

on the contrary, Patrick teaches his students that

"peace should be the way of the warrior for he bears the cost of war"

a good way to get some perspective on this sort of sport is to read Michael Poliakoff's Combat Sports in the Ancient World, which is on the reading list

the book, which was written in '87, is homophobic in the sense that Poliakoff, despite the 10 years of scholarship about homosex in the ancient world which had preceded his book and despite the fact that these ancient wrestlers, boxers, and pankratiasts trained and competed nude, makes no mention of homosex among these men

however, the book is full of not just vase paintings and other illustrations but literary accounts of memorable athletes and events from over a thousand year period

and those are well-worth reading

"Victory or death" was a common sentiment among those guys, and though that doesn't and shouldn't appeal to moderns, in an age when life expectancy was low, and particularly after the collapse of Greek democracy and the rise of the Roman Imperium, to many glory mattered more than length of days

of course i don't nor does this site endorse that mentality today

the material conditions of life have greatly changed, and to us death at an early age is a tragedy

but when men, whatever their "sexual orientation," find these impulses within themselves, it's well for them to reflect that such urges are at least as old as the race, and probably much older



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