Bill Weintraub

6-9-2003

Re: Still sparring

hey spike

thank you for this terrific post

you're right that the terminology of tops and bottoms has slipped into mainstream nongay culture, and that "straight people" who want to be supportive of gay men will frequently ask whether you're a top or a bottom

so one of the most important things you can do is explain to them that you're neither, that you don't anal penetration and that there's a very large and growing community of men who have sex with men who don't do anal either and who reject anal and promiscuity

in that respect, this is NOT a sad time to be a guy into frot

this is a great time to be a guy into frot, because our numbers are growing and thanks primarily to the men on this site, we're entering the consciousness of mainstream America

and you can help by simply speaking the truth of your lives to everyone you can

and referring them to our sites:

http://www.heroichomosex.org

http://www.man2manalliance.org

re sparring

while we do encourage people to learn a martial art, we don't want people to get injured

and i want to emphasize that it's not necessary or likely that you'll get hurt in an ordinary kenpo or tae kwon do dojo (school)

what spike is talking about is different

he's taken up "traditional" boxing and was sparring a lot

that's analogous to taking up kick-boxing and becoming semi-pro, as my lover Patrick did

that's a full-contact sport, and chances are you'll get hurt, as Patrick was when he fought Paco

he lost some hearing in that fight

Patrick doesn't regret that, but he'd be the first to tell you that being a kick-boxer means doing a lot of roadwork and getting hit a lot

and it's absolutely not necessary to do that to gain skills and confidence from a martial art like kenpo karate

it's useful to learn that you can take a punch

but you don't have to take hundreds of head shots -- that's not necessary, only a few people are put together physically to withstand that, and most others choose a far more moderate level of contact

finally, spike is right that if you open yourself up to the possibility of a frot relationship with another man, even if he's straight-identified, it's likely to happen

i can't promise that, but virtually all straight-identified men have same-sex needs and desires

and once you start thinking outside the box of gay / straight, you're far more likely to connect

one more reason dudes that

TJ

6-12-2003

Hi Spike,

I saw your story on the Cockrub site. I was interested to read your experience with boxing and it resonated with my own experience when I was a fighter some years ago. I was a pro fighter for a couple of years before I retired "unhurt". Maybe I was lucky, maybe I was clever, who knows! Pro fighters have one advantage over amateurs - they have a manager, if they have any sense. And the manager is there to take care of you and see to it that you fight the right guys. While he is honestly looking out for you, you should not get hurt. Least not hurt too much. I should say not more than you want to get hurt!

Like you, I used to get a real erotic thrill in the ring. Not all fighters feel it that way. Most have other much more animalistic sensations related to the fight itself. And to bring erotic thrill up against an animalistic desire to hurt is a great contest in itself. Both are important, but the erotic is much more satisfying.

My experience in the fight game tells me that many, but not all, fighters have an erotic response to being in the ring. We use that as part of the fight in dealing with the opponent. It varies with the type of opponent and the way the fight goes. Maybe I'll tell you about it some time.

I enjoy frot and this site. Who knows, maybe I loved the fight game for that reason or vice versa. Its all in a man's dick and how it connects to his balls.

spike

Re: Still sparring

6-13-2003

I didn't know Patrick lost some of his hearing in that fight. It's sad to learn that... I knew the risks when I was sparring, and it goes back to the whole "playing with fire" analogy for me -- because I need to keep my hearing intact (I compose music for money) and also need to keep my head clear, and keep my brains from being rattled too much (I also write computer code for money). There are many risks involved in contact sports.

But how I wish a year of martial sports was a compulsory requirement for everyone. The world would be a much nicer place. You don't have to sustain injuries to become a confident warrior; there are lots of fighting sports to choose from, and a good martial arts program (for example) won't force you to spar until years have passed and your skills are honed.

There's a growing movement of people (men and women) who train as boxers but don't do any sparring or fighting. These people get plenty of respect from me, since the workout itself is hard. It's also good to get the technique down, and know how to hit. It will make you a more confident person.

Anyway, this is sort of a follow-up post: I've found a new boxing club, which is close to my workplace. It's not as hardcore as the gym I belonged to before, but it feels good to be around other boxers again, it's so inspiring. I want some more fights before I quit boxing for good, and I hope my will is strong enough to endure. If I can't stop sparring, then I can at least face it down.

Bill Weintraub

Re: Still sparring

06-14-2003

thank you spike for these terrific posts and these words of wisdom:

But how I wish a year of martial sports was a compulsory requirement for everyone. The world would be a much nicer place. You don't have to sustain injuries to become a confident warrior; there are lots of fighting sports to choose from, and a good martial arts program (for example) won't force you to spar until years have passed and your skills are honed.

that's right

in point of fact, you're never forced to spar

that's your choice

and even then you determine the level of contact

so spike's experience in what sounds like a hard-core boxing gym is no reason not to do a martial art

re Patrick and his fight with Paco

that fight was bloodier and more violent than was the norm for that gym, which was a full-contact kick-boxing gym

Paco and his buddies were visiting and were adepts at Gracie Ju-jitsu, a very aggressive and effective style of fighting which, years after Patrick and Paco's fight, received a lot of publicity

in any case, Patrick doesn't regret his partial hearing loss from the fight

to Patrick it was a trade-off:

i wasn't wearing a groin cup because i had been doing kata that day...not fighting...he wasn't wearing one either and his cock was hard and erect under my own erection...it was a physical battle to be sure, but it also had a potent sexuality...and both of us were fully aware of it...a primeval battle between 2 warriors...both young...both muscular... both bleeding...both so vital and alive...both leaders...both potent...semi-nude...bare chest to bare chest...locked in battle...clashing in mind, body and sexuality... semi-nude...bare chest to bare chest...pecs, abs, arms, legs and even cocks vying for one moment's advantage to score the win... in full view of their women...

that was a special day for Patrick (and probably Paco too) and always will be

but that doesn't mean that Patrick before or since has gone out of his way to look for bloody fights

on the contrary, Patrick teaches his students that

"peace should be the way of the warrior for he bears the cost of war"

a good way to get some perspective on this sort of sport is to read Michael Poliakoff's Combat Sports in the Ancient World, which is on the reading list

the book, which was written in '87, is homophobic in the sense that Poliakoff, despite the 10 years of scholarship about homosex in the ancient world which had preceded his book and despite the fact that these ancient wrestlers, boxers, and pankratiasts trained and competed nude, makes no mention of homosex among these men

however, the book is full of not just vase paintings and other illustrations but literary accounts of memorable athletes and events from over a thousand year period

and those are well-worth reading

"Victory or death" was a common sentiment among those guys, and though that doesn't and shouldn't appeal to moderns, in an age when life expectancy was low, and particularly after the collapse of Greek democracy and the rise of the Roman Imperium, to many glory mattered more than length of days

of course i don't nor does this site endorse that mentality today

the material conditions of life have greatly changed, and to us death at an early age is a tragedy

but when men, whatever their "sexual orientation," find these impulses within themselves, it's well for them to reflect that such urges are at least as old as the race, and probably much older