Bill Weintraub

Re: True Man2Man Intimacy

8-5-09

Thank you Ted.

Guys, as I'll discuss later in this reply, Warrior Ted was the author of the original email titled "Questions about Christianity and Homosexuality," which, along with my reply, became a post of the same name, and which you can read here.

The reason it appeared without Ted's name, is that it took quite a while before he responded to my emailed reply, and in the meantime I had decided that his questions and my response were too important not to be posted for all to see.

Nevertheless, Ted is the person who sent in those questions, and as you'll see, my reply, as well as other reading he did on the site, and other email conversations we had, convinced him that he too was a Man and a Warrior -- who belonged in the Man2Man Alliance.

Where he's been ever since.

And I'll talk about that later in this post.

But let's look at today's email from Ted first:

I just went and checked out the site to see what was new, and I've really enjoyed the new articles that you've put up.

That's great!

I'm glad you like them.

I notice that you use a lot of latin and koine greek in your arguments/points that you make.

Yes, that's right.

I think that's a very good idea as man2man intimacy was accepted, revered, and considered normal among them.

That's correct.

It's funny how you hear nothing about that at all in today's history books.

Yes.

Again, we're dealing with a dominant culture or actually two dominant cultures -- one "gay," the other "straight" -- and neither wants those particular truths to be known.

They're too upsetting to the status quo.

But read one book by Plato and its stated like it's common knowledge.

That's because it was common knowledge.

It's how they lived.

And of course it's not just in Plato.

It's in almost every ancient author.

For example, I often suggest that our guys read Plutarch.

Here's an easy way to get started on that:

There's a little book of excerpts from Plutartch titled The Rise and Fall of Athens: Nine Greek Lives.

It's published by Penguin.

So the author is Plutarch and the translator Ian Scott-Kilvert.

I've added it to our Heroes Reading List.

And every Hero should read it.

Just as any reasonable library should have it or be able to order it.

If you read that book, starting with Solon -- you'll see how common it is for the guys to have male lovers -- and how casually it's mentioned.

To me, it shows how we, in a nation where true man2man intimacy is perverted with (for lack of a better term) the pseudo-feminine, can return to a more natural way of thinking.

Yes -- and that's our goal in the Alliance.

I wonder how long the human mind can stand perversion, before it starts to affect every aspect of life.

Right.

Without question our lives have become perverted by the denial of man2man.

And it's replacement with, as you say, the pseudo-feminine.

So, to me, this is more than an issue of what's right or wrong, or 'culturally correct', it's about truth and behaving naturally.

That's right -- and very well-said.

If we pervert those two things, we will have problems in society and in our own lives and psyches.

Right.

So -- as you said, and said very well, This is about "truth and behaving naturally."

As you pointed out, among the Greeks, "man2man intimacy was accepted, revered, and considered normal..."

But in our culture, "true man2man intimacy is perverted with (for lack of a better term) the pseudo-feminine..."

To which I would add -- and, the pseudo-masculine.

In other words, "true man2man intimacy is perverted" by the pseudo-feminine in the form of analism -- and by the pseudo-masculine -- in the form of heterosexism.

Heterosexism teaches that "real men" don't wish for, nor do they ever experience, "true man2man intimacy";

while analism not merely teaches but enforces a perverted form of male-male "intimacy" in which male-female sex roles are imitated, and one male is forced into a pseudo-feminine role.

As one of our Warrior said years ago, those male / pseudo-female roles are "culturally coerced."

So the question we face is:

Will True Man2Man Intimacy be accepted and revered?

As it was among the Greeks --

Or perverted -- as it among us in our present society?

That's the question.

Also, I've decided to start a sort of social experiment, in which I'm attempting to write about a fictional world in which people behave naturally, morally, and logically.

Great!

A key component is going to be that sexuality is restored to its proper, unperverted place, without the concept of "who does who of a certain gender" but the only sexual ethic/concept of love, fidelity, and pair-bonding.

Ted, that sounds excellent!

And thank you for this excellent post!

You're a true Warrior.

And guys, as I said above, we're indebted to Ted the Warrior not just for this excellent post, but for his Questions about Christianity and Homosexuality, which is really one of the most useful discussions of religion and Men we have on the site.

And while the reply is mine, the questions are Ted's.

So -- for today, I want to post just some of what Ted said to me when he finally did write back to me about his Questions:

Ted:

Thank you for clarifying about 'sexual orientation', I am finally understanding what you've been saying all along. I finally get that there's no 'straight', 'bi', 'gay' or 'in-between'...there's just men. Directly related to that, I realize that I'm a man, not a 'straight', 'bi', 'gay' or 'in-between' man, (which would then make me an alien compared to other men) but that I'm just a normal, average guy.

It's hard to describe 1) the relief and 2) sense that it is right that this brings about. Honestly, I thought that I was 'different' (pick a category), because I am attracted to men, it's an overwhelming feeling when I suddenly realized, that I'm not different, I don't have a 'different' or 'minority' 'sexual orienation', I'm just a guy.

Thank you very much for helping me to (finally) see this.

In reply, I said to Ted,

Ted, this is the crucial sentence in that paragraph:

"It's hard to describe 1) the relief and 2) sense that it is right that this brings about."

Ted, if it feels right to you, that's because it is.

Hold tight to that Ted.

Here are some other things Ted said, followed by my replies to him.

Ted:

Though some people might claim that we 'need' categories in which to describe sexuality, because language, by very nature, must classify things; I think that being a man is a very relevant category.

If you must, you can call men 'bi', but the thing is, as I have come to see it, that a man is a being with a sexual component, and it doesn't matter if that man's attractions fall more towards the same or opposite natural gender.

Sometimes labels do more limiting than classifying.

Our culture really likes to operate on labels because it helps us to know how to behave.

'If you're classified as 'this', then I know that you like 'this', that you live like 'this', and that you consider youself to be 'this', so now I know how to interact and respond to you.' But that is really the extent of how labels can be helpful. I would rather be myself than a label.

It's much more freeing, it's also much more honest, as you don't have to live in a stereotype, especially if aspects of that stereotype are undesirable to me.

The message that men, including evangelicals, need to hear is that they are normal, and they don't need a label. They need truth, acceptance, and love.

And here's my response to Ted, starting with Ted's words.

Ted:

Though some people might claim that we 'need' categories in which to describe sexuality, because language, by very nature, must classify things; I think that being a man is a very relevant category.

Bill:

Yes -- it most certainly is.

If you must, you can call men 'bi', but the thing is, as I have come to see it, that a man is a being with a sexual component, and it doesn't matter if that man's attractions fall more towards the same or opposite natural gender.

Yes, Ted, that's correct.

And Ted, I can't emphasize enough with you -- and all the other guys -- how different the perspective was in the ancient world.

To the Men of the ancient world, relationships which included a sexual component -- always had a purpose.

The purpose of mixed sex relationships was procreation.

The purpose of same sex relationships was the promotion of excellence -- the pursuit of moral beauty.

Ted, I'm going to be talking about that in a post which I hope will go up soon -- and then in some future posts as well.

But to the ancients, excellence aka areté aka virtue was what mattered.

Not the gender of the person you were involved with.

But whether the involvement served a moral purpose.

Ted -- the great classicist Werner Jaeger talks about the "passionate moral earnestness" of those ancient Men who took part in Eros -- same-sex love -- and that's an excellent descriptor -- "passionate moral earnestness."

Jaeger: "Lovers who were bound by the male Eros were guarded by a deeper sense of honour from committing any base action, and were driven by a nobler impulse in attempting any honourable deed."

And that's absolutely correct.

And wouldn't we today be better off if our discourse centered on "virtue" -- rather than "sexual orientation?"

Ted:

Sometimes labels do more limiting than classifying.

Yes!

Exactly!

Our culture really likes to operate on labels because it helps us to know how to behave.

Yes.

'If you're classified as 'this', then I know that you like 'this', that you live like 'this', and that you consider youself to be 'this', so now I know how to interact and respond to you.' But that is really the extent of how labels can be helpful. I would rather be myself than a label.

Absolutely!

It's much more freeing, it's also much more honest, as you don't have to live in a stereotype, especially if aspects of that stereotype are undesirable to me.

Right!

The message that men, including evangelicals need to hear is that they are normal, and they don't need a label. They need truth, acceptance, and love.

Yes, Ted, and that's very well-said.

Exceptionally so.

So good, that it bears repeating:

The message that men, including evangelicals, need to hear is that they are normal, and they don't need a label. They need truth, acceptance, and love.

All Men, including evangelicals, need to hear that they're normal, and don't need a label.

Men need to know the Truth about themselves -- about being Men -- and then Lovingly accept themselves for who and what they are -- Men.

MEN.

So -- guys -- all this is to introduce Ted the Warrior.

Like I said, he's posted in Alliance Youth, and his fellow young Men can look for him there.

Which I hope they will.

Because Ted's a true Warrior:

A Man who's decided to live with integrity in the spirit of his own brave truth.

Bill Weintraub

August 5, 2005

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