Robert Loring

Re: Can one man be faithful to another?

4-6-2004

I absolutely agree with you Bill but I think it also important to realize that "whoreish behavior" is just not existent in gay culture but also in hetrosexual culture. I think it has little to nothing to do with sexual preference and more to do with our modern society's lack of emphasis on loyalty to one's partner be they male or female.

Modern society does not value personal commitment nor does it value self/other responsibility. In fact, what we value as identified from our behavior is personal irresponsibility and only tangible commitment. That's why, if you notice, everything is someone elses fault and we are the constant "victim".

If you truly love someone then you are committed to each other. That means you don't run to and fro like a whore! That means that you honor each others mutual love by not jumping in the sack with other people and, thus, betraying the person you love and who loves you. Commitment is a significant part of ANY relationship!! Without commitment there is NO relationship. That goes for gay, bi, or straight relationships.

Many people today "can't find" a lasting relationship, be they gay or whatever, because they are unwilling to make a personal commitment and have loyalty for a partner. Many straight marriages end in divorce today because husband and wife lack commitment to each other and shared loyalty. If a person is unwilling to give personal commitment to one's partner/spouse then I really question just how much such a person is seriously wanting a lasting relationship. Love is involves personal commitment and loyalty but our society today seems not to hold these values in practice even though we echo them with our mouths.

There is an ancient wisdom from the spiritual teachers in the Far East which says:

If you want love,
Then you yourself must love.
If you want loyalty,
Then you yourself must be loyal.
If you want happiness,
Then you must practice happiness with another.
Anything you want,
You must first BE otherwise you will never attain it.

Sir Robert

steadfast

Re: Can one man be faithful to another?

4-06-2004

Amen, brothers! As one who has experienced 27 years of absolute committment, the joy in a monogamous relationship is so much richer than the "fun" to be had with multiple partners. In a faithful partnership, you never get the post-coital letdown that drives you to search for the next willing body. (And it's no great embarassment if you happen to fart in bed.)

steadfast

Andy

Re: Can one man be faithful to another?

5-25-2004

I think gay men can be faithful to each other. I'm only 19, and have just recently met my first boyfriend of three months. I have been so happy, but at the same time I am very scared that he will leave me and cheat.

Maybe I'm just overly insecure, but I've dated many guys and have had a lot of "hookups" and "one-nighters" before. Those things made me cry, and I learned that you do NOT have to be a slut to be gay. Yet, even though heterosexuals cheat and can be promiscuous, I see it as the number one problem for gay people!

My theory as to why gay men seem so promiscuous revolves around "coming out". I'm basing this on what I've seen and heard. When gay men do not come out to their family, it's very hard for them to develop a long-term relationship because they feel like they can never tell their parents about their partners.

But on the other hand, what I totally don't understand is gay couples who enjoy having "fun" with a third!!! This is horrible, and the ultimate way for spreading diseases. Yes, straight people have their problems too, but it really does seem that gay men are more shallow regarding looks, and more promiscuous too!

Andy

David

Re: Can one man be faithful to another?

5-27-2004

Amen Andy, I couldn't agree with you more. Promiscuity is part of the mainstream gay culture, just as anal is. It doesn't make it right, quite the opposite, it eats away at your ability to trust and relate as a man to other men, it destroys.

On the other hand, there are a lot of guys, more then you realize Andy; that feel just the way you do. You needn't go farther then this site and the personal story section to see this truth.

Be true to who you are, never lower your morals to meet the expectations of a gay culture whose time is running short!

Robert Loring

Re: Can one man be faithful to another?

5-30-2004

Bill wrote: "So that's the thing: change the culture and the cultural messages, and you change the behavior." Along similar lines is the basic premise of Cognitive Psychology which states, "Change the thinking. Change the behavior."

Human beings be they gay, straight, whatever are social creatures. The culture we live in influences us and we, in turn, have an influence on that culture. We tend to think that we are atonomous or immune because we are individuals but the fact is that we do not live in a vaccum. Our behaviors, thoughts, and even our desires and emotions are rather heavily influenced by the culture we are a part of. We sometimes delude ourselves into thinking that we have made a "personal choice" when, in fact, we are simply conforming to the cultural norm or cultural conditioning. When the norms of any culture change then we who are a part of that culture change.

All human beings have a desire for acceptance. We all want to "fit in". No one likes rejection. No one likes being ostracized. Fact is that most human beings will do almost anything to "fit in" even if what they do is not in their best interest. The desire to "fit in" often overrides all other desires and, many times, even common sense.

We are, in fact, a product of the culture we live in. We accept the norms. We play the ascribed roles so that we gain acceptance. We adhere to the "dos" and "don'ts"of the culture or subculture because we want to "fit in". But, our brains delude us into thinking that what we do is a matter of "personal choice" nevertheless.

In terms of changing a culture, most human beings do not change until confronted with absolute disaster. Cultural change is spearheaded by those courageous individuals who decide to go against the cultural norms and follow new norms or create new norms. Cultural change is a long process because human beings are very comfortable with the "as is" scheme of things. We feel "safe" in our comfort zones even though we may not be safe at all. But, cultural change eventually does happen as more and more individuals begin to see the light, so to speak. Many a small group has brought about cultural change. All of the great world movements have been initiated by small groups of people wanting cultural change. Big changes most often begin with small groups of people and seldom is change initiated by large groups of people. For cultural change to happen requires that those carrying the new cultural message be consistent and persistant. People's behaviors will change once the cultural message has been changed.

It is fantasy to think that we are automous individuals complete because no one of us lives on planet Earth alone. Rather, we share this planet with about 7 billion other people. We influence them and they influence us heavily. We all conform to peer pressure and cultural norms whether we admit it or not. Next to love the desire for acceptance is often the strongest desire and emotion. The desire is so strong that we will do literally anything to "fit in" with the crowd even if that crowd is headed off the cliff.

dave

Re: Can one man be faithful to another?

5-30-2004

yes i can. if im with a guy that knows im into his looks, smell and taste. and he knows ill watch him when hes not looking or sleeping. im in love for the long haul. thanks dave

dave

Shawn

Re: Can one man be faithful to another?

6-15-2004

Yes. Not only can one man be faithful to another, it is the natural way. I believe we are each meant to be with one other person, forever. Soulmates, Brothers or whatev you wanna call it, it is the Union between 2 people that completes both.

Being in love and having sex with a partner is the fun and easy part. Being faithful, honest, and committed is the challenge. It is not easy. It is not convienent. It cant be Marketed, Packaged and shipped to you for the sale price of $2.99. It takes all you've got to give, and you've gotta give it all.

It has been a few months since i last visited this site. i had begun to forget how important the Ideals promoted here are to me. The truth about sodomy, how it destroys your masculinity, and how important masculinty is to us men. The reminder that there are other men out there that feel the same way. I love this site.

KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK BILL!! MORE DONATIONS COMING YOUR WAY!!

SHAWN

Bill Weintraub

Re: Can one man be faithful to another?

6-16-2004

Shawn says

"It takes all you've got to give, and you've gotta give it all."

That's right.

"i had begun to forget how important the Ideals promoted here are to me. The truth about sodomy, how it destroys your masculinity, and how important masculinty is to us men. The reminder that there are other men out there that feel the same way. I love this site."

Thanks Shawn.

We tell the truth about sodomy, and about masculinity, and about men who have sex with men.

That they are men.

And that you don't have to look any further than their maleness for an explanation of why they want, have sex with, and ultimately love, another man.

Sean

Re: Can one man be faithful to another?

6-16-2004

I wish I could share your optimism, guys, but after almost 25 years in the gay life, I'm not as convinced. I've seen countless "open" relationships that started out with the best of intentions, only to have those intentions get shoved aside when the next pliant body came along. I'm not saying it's impossible for fidelity to exist, but it seems tor require far more effort than most folks are willing to expend. My own relationship, now in its seventh year, started as a fully monogamous one until my s/o started travelling for work and found himself enjoying the local custom, as it were. I told myself I could deal with that as long as he didnt bring home any souvenirs; unfortunately, after returning from my own business trip last March, I found a boarding pass from one of his "buddies" in Denver who'd flown up the day after I left. Naturally, there was a lot of evasive discussion, most of which I left dormant because there just wasn't any point any more -- and needless to say, even though it's after seven years together, I'm calling it quits and moving on, hopefully to find someone who shares more of my values than just the most superficial ones.

I suppose that little tale of woe could be considered, in this discussion thread, as a bad case of sour grapes - not so, trust me. But what happened seemed to be pretty much the norm more than the exception, and, with AIDS on the rise yet again within our community, I dont see us making any real change.

Still, knowing there's groups like this, where guys understand and appreciate the importance of monogamy, makes it all the easier to handle when things get more than a little rough.

Sean Martin

Bill Weintraub

Re: Can one man be faithful to another?

6-16-2004

Hi Sean,

You say, "I don't see us making any real change."

I'm sorry your relationship didn't work out.

But I look at you as one of the reasons we're not seeing more change.

Because before you posted here, you posted in Frot Club looking for "guys" into wrestlin and frot:

"Any guys in/near CR into wrestling (rougher the better and I'm not adverse to the occasional head shot) and post- or during-match frot, drop me a line."

That's a clear violation of our posting guidelines, which ask you to help us change the conversation about sex and fidelity by being mindful of language.

Then you post here in Personal Stories complaining about the lack of fidelity among gay men.

If you're not willing to take that tiniest of first steps that we request in Frot Club about limiting *yourself* to one partner, and using language that expresses that limit, how on earth do you expect the culture to ever change?

Sean: What is now -- has not always been.

That's the message of this site regarding anal, regarding promiscuity, and regarding effeminacy:

That cultural norms affecting sexual acts, fidelity, and the expression of "gender," change -- they are constantly in flux;

And that through activism we can influence that change.

Sean -- you say you've been out 25 years.

Could you have imagined 25 years ago that we'd be debating, as a nation, gay marriage?

That's a vast cultural change which was brought about by the dedicated activism of gay men and lesbians and their nongay friends.

The men who visit this site and who claim, like you, to be so unhappy with the way things are, could bring about a similarly vast cultural change.

But the overwhelming majority of you are doing nothing -- you don't donate, you don't help publicize the site in other ways, you don't write to your local gay and nongay press supporting fidelity and non-anal alternatives.

Nothing.

Yet, one thing you can be sure of: if you do nothing, nothing will change.

So I don't respect your post because I don't see you doing anything to correct the conditions you decry.

On the contrary, what I see from you is a Frot Club post soliciting multiple contacts.

Guys, you cannot start out soliciting promiscuous sex and think that will lead you to a monogamous relationship, any more than you can "go along to get along" and do anal, and think that somehow that will lead to a Frot relationship.

It doesn't work that way.

There are guys in this club who have found monogamous Frot relationships through the site.

Not just me.

But the way that happened for me was that I insisted on it from the get-go.

And I work each and every day to change the culture of men who have sex with men, so that my relationship will be supported by my culture.

I wish more of you could understand that.

Culture matters.

It's not enough to seek a private solution.

You want your culture to support your private life.

There's more promiscuity among gay men and gay male couples than among heterosexuals because gay male culture supports promiscuity.

Change the culture and you change the behavior.

But changing the culture demands that you act.

Sean, you say, "I've seen countless "open" relationships that started out with the best of intentions, only to have those intentions get shoved aside when the next pliant body came along."

No kidding.

Once the relationship is open to sexual infidelity, it becomes open to emotional infidelity.

And that's the end of it.

That's why we say Fidelity and Frot.

Not open relationships and Frot.

Sean, you also say: "My own relationship, now in its seventh year, started as a fully monogamous one until my s/o started travelling for work and found himself enjoying the local custom, as it were. I told myself I could deal with that ... "

Clearly that was a mistake.

What you needed to do was tell him to change his ways -- or you would walk.

Think that doesn't work?

It does.

I've posted a lot on this board and in my articles about the ABC program in Uganda.

Now I know that a lot of you guys will dismiss something from Uganda because it's African and poor and Black.

In other words, because you're First World elitists and racists.

Nevertheless, the Ugandan government demonstrated *decisively* that when it strongly supported and encouraged women telling their husbands and bfs that if they didn't stop "grazing," they'd leave -- the husbands stopped grazing.

As a consequence, Uganda has reduced HIV prevalence for 12 consecutive years -- something the US, with all its technological power and wealth, has not been able to do.

The number of people living with HIV in the US is actually *higher* now than it was in 1995, when my lover died.

Does that suggest anything to you guys?????????????

Or am I wasting my breath?

Propping up promiscuity and anal sex by distributing condoms and telling people it's okay to have "multiple partners" -- which is what the AIDS Service Organizations and their "safer-sex" educators do -- doesn't work.

If you want to deal with a disease which is transmitted through anal sex and spread by promiscuity, you need to tell people not to do anal sex and not to be promiscuous.

And you can't use half-measures, or mince your words.

So: if you're in a relationship and your partner's eyes are beginning to wander, you tell him: I don't do open relationships.

If you want me to be here for you through all the bad times which we will inevitably face, then you need to be here for me and me alone sexually and emotionally 100%.

Same with anal.

If a guy says to you, hey, we could really have something if you'd do anal;

You say: NO.

I don't do anal, and we can't have anything until you understand and fully accept and honor that.

That's the way it has to be.

I'm sympathetic to Sean and the rest of you because I know your culture undercuts your efforts to avoid anal and be faithful.

But I'm not sympathetic to your doing NOTHING to change that culture.

Because both your individual behavior and the culture have to change.

And only you can change them.

David

Re: Can one man be faithful to another?

6-28-2004

Without question, without doubt, yes two men can be faithful to one another.

Remember no one forces another out of fidelity, one allows it to happen. There's that old human quality of "free will"; and no the devil didn't make you do it, you did.

I've been fortunate in having two parents that were in love with each other to their deaths. I see it in the strong marriages of my brother and sister, with friends and co-workers. Examples of fidelity are all around us if we want to see them.

It's a copout, in my opinion, to enter into a relationship with the expectation that it's not for the long haul; you get what you give. When you enter into a committed monogamous relationship, you're entering into a bond, a bond that never dies.

What's an "open relationship"? It's basically an arrangement to share monthly expenses and each other isn't it really? How can you truly love your partner, when you court the sexual desires of another? It's a bizarre view of what love is all about.

Love is about respect for one another, tolerance and understanding, compassion and tenderness, loyalty and fidelity to the exclusion of all others.

Love is without doubt the greatest gift of all. It's a gift that must be nurtured and cared for in good times and in bad. Sometimes it requires more work for one partner then another; who ever said that it would always be easy. It's not always easy, but, when your focus is on him and his focus is on you, when you put into perspective everyday challenges, when you get past the "me" factor. It's life, and it's love that matters the most!

David

Bill Weintraub

Re: Can one man be faithful to another?

8-14-2004

Hi guys

Apropos this discussion, I've recently added some more posts to our Frot Club Samples page, and I encourage you to take a look at them.

Because they're all from guys looking for an LTR or a Frot Buddy.

Singular.

I've talked about changing the culture by changing the conversation, and that's what we're doing in this case.

By reserving that board for Frot Men, and for Frot Men who are looking for an LTR or Frot Bud, we're making a positive intervention in the culture, changing it in a way that will benefit everyone.

Because there's no question that people do better -- physically, psychologically, and spiritually -- in stable, loving, long term relationships than they do drowning in a sea of promiscuity and sleaze.

Here's an excerpt from a recent study on marriage and men.

It was written about "heterosexual men," but if you're gay or bi, don't kid yourself -- in the ways that matter, you're as heterosexual as the next guy.

Just remember that by marriage, the authors mean monogamous marriage.

And that the emphases are mine.

For men, even more than for women, marriage is a transformative event. Getting married tends to change men's behavior in notable and predictable ways. When men marry, they begin to lead healthier and more productive lives. They work harder and do better financially than men who are not married. They are less likely to hang out in bars, to abuse alcohol or drugs or to engage in illegal activities. They are more likely to spend time with relatives and to be involved in religious and community activities. Their sex lives are better. They are more responsible and involved fathers.1

Scholars offer a number of explanations for the positive effects of marriage on men. One key reason is wives [which I'll change here to "partners."] Partners provide emotional support and physical care to their spouses. They monitor their husband's health habits, encourage them to seek medical treatment, when necessary, and often find a doctor or health professional to provide such treatment. In addition to TLC, partners commonly provide SDRs (stable domestic routines). Along with better health practices, stable routines help to reduce job absenteeism, quit rates and sick days and thus to strengthen men's workforce attachment. Moreover, since the majority of partners today work outside the home, men gain financial advantages from their partners' workforce participation. Wage-earning partners reduce pressure on husbands to be the sole breadwinner while, at the same time, increasing family income and assets, the traditional measure of a man's contribution to the family.

[However, says Bill, it is the diminished earning power of men and the rising cost of living which has forced wives into the workforce. While my father was alive, my mother didn't *need* to work. Nor did Patrick's or Brett's.

Nowadays, few families can survive unless both spouses work.]

But the positive influence of partners does not explain why married men do better than, say, cohabiting men who also enjoy the benefits of having a female domestic partner. The reason for the difference probably has to do with the influence of marriage itself. Marriage includes a norm of male altruism. While it is acceptable for single men to be self-indulgent and carefree, it is not so for married men. Once married, men are supposed to work and care for others. They are expected to voluntarily donate their time and money to their wives and children and also, to a lesser degree, to kin who may need their help.

Remember that those are generalizations.

Of course some marriages are hell; and there are people who do better on their own, though they are without question a minority.

Because in general, human beings were meant to be and are happiest in strong, stable relationships.

So the idea behind everything we do here -- whether it's relating epic tales of the warrior past or setting up posting guidelines in Frot Club -- is that guys coming to this site will stop thinking of themselves as faceless cogs in a consumerist machine -- which is what gay male promiscuity is about -- and start thinking of themselves as beings of intrinsic worth.

Which is what you are.

Ck out those posts.

Bill Weintraub