first time frot-wrestle?

Bill Weintraub

Bill Weintraub

first time frot-wrestle?


The other day a guy wrote to me saying he'd found "a potential frot buddy" and asking me "how should a first meeting go"?

I wrote back, and since he said he found my reply useful, I'm posting it here.

Not just because of this guy, but because I see a fair number of posts in Frot Club saying "First-timer looking for a more experienced guy / teacher."

That mindset -- of needing a teacher to do sex -- comes out of that idiot Al-the-analist and his dopey kid brother Sam-the-safer-sex-educator -- to and for whom sex is so complex that you need someone with an advanced degree to explain it to you.

Frot isn't like that.

Frot is a completely natural and innocent act.

And you don't need lessons.

Anyways, here's the email and my response:


I have a potential frot buddy. How should a first meeting go. He says he wants to wrestle with clothes on. What kind of wrestling should it be and how do I initiate it?? Give me some tips on what I should do.



Hi Joe

Thanks for writing.

I have a potential frot buddy. How should a first meeting go.

Well, if it's literally your first meeting, it needn't be about sex at all.

It shouldn't be in my view.

How bout getting to know each other first?

He says he wants to wrestle with clothes on. What kind of wrestling should it be and how do I initiate it?? Give me some tips on what I should do.

Joe, Frot is a completely natural male-male activity.

As is wrestling / rough-housing.

So don't make it complicated.

Let your bodies guide you.

What kind of wrestling should it be

How bout "all-in" / "catch-as-catch can"?

You know, it's not the Olympics.

It's just two guys having fun.

and how do I initiate it??

How bout saying, "Let's wrestle"?

he wants to wrestle with clothes on

If you do that, your clothes are going to get messed up -- to say the least.

Sweat pants and tee shirts might be okay.

Or shorts and tee shirts -- even better.

But you really don't need the shirts.

For many many years collegiate wrestling etc was not done in singlets, but in shorts and no shirts.

Singlets came in because shorts tend to get pulled down / off.

So singlets were a way of preventing nudity from breaking through.

But nudity is natural.

Anyways, if you start wrestling around and rubbing pecs and crotches, your dicks will get hard.

And let your dicks guide you.

The natural thing to do with two hard dicks is put em together.

That's what your dicks want.

They want to be brought together.

Just as you want to hug and wrestle and have full-body contact with another man -- your dick wants to rub against and wrestle and have full-cock-contact with another dick.

I'm not making that up.

That's just how it is.

In a state of nature, the genitals will naturally come together.

So again, don't make it complicated.

Dolphins rub cocks.

Bonobos -- chimps -- rub cocks.

Believe me, they don't spend a lot of time thinking about it first.

They just do it.

I hope that helps.



Joe, if you're straight / bi-identified you may want to look at the various Sensei Patrick articles.

That's the end of my reply to Joe.

But I want to add some pix to this post so that guys can see that you don't need a lot clothes, among other things.

Naked Wrestler sent me this one.

This is a college wrestling team -- maybe high school -- in what looks like the 1950s -- but maybe earlier.

And you can see the guys are shirtless and are wearing shorts.

Under their shorts, they're wearing tights.

That's because in those days they wrestled on canvas mats, which could badly abraid their knees and the rest of their legs.

So the tights are there not for modesty, but for safety.

This next pic is from At Ease, which we've talked about before, and which is a collection of photos of US Navy personnel during WW II.

Naked Wrestler very kindly and very generously sent me a copy of that book.

These are naval airmen learning wrestling / self-defense -- because of the danger that they'd be shot down behind enemy lines.

And as you can see it's just shorts and no shirts.

There's a war on, it's a huge national emergency, and no one has time to worry about tights and singlets and all that stuff.

And I suppose I should say here, since this the first time I've discussed that book since seeing it, that though both the gay press and the anti-gay right has made it seem as though the photos in the book are "homo-erotic," they're not.

At least not to me.

What they overwhelmingly are -- is good-natured.

That's really what comes through.

Not the "homo-erotic."

But the good-naturedness of the life these men shared.

These are just men being very relaxed and indeed "at ease" with each other in the midst of a terrible war.

And most of the photos are either shirts-off or nude to some degree because they were taken in the South Pacific where it was very hot.

And you just get a sense of these guys being very comfortable with each other.

Here's another:

So this is a homosocial environment -- and guys are being "homo-social."

Basically what happened was that the strictures against same-sex affection -- which had become so powerful in the 1920s and 1930s -- were let go of for the duration of the war.

Which was, as I said, a huge national emergency.

However, at the close of the war, with communism identified as the new enemy, and with liberalism consequently suspect, a new and even harsher set of social strictures was introduced, in which any chance men might have had to realize their Natural Masculinity was very effectively destroyed -- seemingly forever.

Which is sad, because when you look at the photos in At Ease, you realize that for these men, this was their peak experience of what used to be a normal and natural male environment --

and that if they survived the war, life went rapidly downhill.

Yes, the standard of living of the average American soared after WW II.

But so did measures of anomie and social isolation.

It's unlikely that any of these men would ever again be as comfortable around other men -- as they had been during the war.

So you need to think about what's been lost:

And what you could have again.



© All material Copyright 2007 by Bill Weintraub. All rights reserved.

Bill Weintraub

Re: first time frot-wrestle?


Here are more pics from At Ease.

What's striking in these pics is not just the casual nudity but the amount of touching.

What you see here are guys, under the pressure of a terrible war and with the prospect of imminent death, reverting to their Natural Masculinity.

Most of these men would have been born in 1920 or later, which means that they grew up in a heavily heterosexualized culture, and one in which homosex had been medicalized and demonized.

Yet here they are forming body piles.

That's a reversion to behavior which had been not just hidden but repressed for decades if not longer, but which had been normal and natural for millenia.

There's also a spiritual aspect to what we're seeing here.

Which I know some of you don't want to hear about but which you will hear about nevertheless.

World War II was not, for America, about resources.

It was about defeating a terrible evil emanating from Nazi Germany and Japan.

Both of which intended the permanent subjugation of the rest of the human race.

These guys were involved in a moral enterprise -- and they knew it.

Which is another reason they appear so "good-natured."

Because in their minds what they were doing was both Godly and as nature intended.

Good-natured, good-spirited.

The Greek word for happiness -- "eudaimonia" -- means having a good spirit:

Eu-daimon -- eu = good, daimon = spirit.

Eu-daimonia -- happiness.

Despite the horrors they face, these men appear happy.


Frances observed of Amer Indian warriors that their world was completely imbued with spirit.

And that's how it has to be.

It's all of a piece.

Don't kid yourself, when you look at these pix, that you can pull the homosocial aspect out, but ignore the spiritual.

Or have the sexual without the homosocial.

You can't.

It will not happen.

That's why I keep speaking of the sacramental aspect of phallic sex -- which Luke Shelton referred to EXPLICITLY in describing his relationship with Stephen;

and that's why Robert Loring keeps referencing the way things were.

So if you want to understand these pictures and use them to some extent as a way of getting back to the future --

you need to see them clearly.

These are men at war -- Warriors;

involved in a spiritual enterprise -- which to be a Warrior, a Warrior must be;

and living intensely homosocial lives.

Bill Weintraub


Re: first time frot-wrestle?


I am feeling myself alone because I don't imagine to meet a guy with same phantasies. I am feeling myself bettween two fires: 1) army of heterosexual people and 2) gays and bi who don't want to hear about relationship without anal and oral penetration. I hate anal sex and I don't want to hear about oral sex. Gays and bi with high male culture want to have frottage as King of homosex. I am a bi and I need in help with other guys who want to see clean homosexual relations between guys. I am Ukrainian (Kyiv) who is looking for a deloved guy in order to have nude wrestling with frot and kissing. My age 32. My weight 86 kg. My high 172 sm. Thank you for listening.


Re: first time frot-wrestle?


This is a reply to SUN.

I just wanted to write to say it's never too late to connect. Keep getting yourself out into the world. I was a closeted gay man for thirty years; was a veteran of the Viet Nam era having served in the Army as an MP. I didn't lose my virginity until my late twenties and thought that I'd never find a partner because I didn't fit into the "straight" or "gay" worlds. All I knew was that I loved to wrestle and the only guys who wrestled with me were straight guys with girlfriends and wives who ultimately would try to fix me up with a girl or persuade their husbands to drop our friendships.

Finally at the YMCA in Los Angeles I was up at the mats and saw a sexy guy wrestling another guy. When they finished the sexy guy stayed and continued stretching and I thought, "Be brave, as awkward as you feel, go talk to him." So I wandered, petrified, over to him and asked if there was a wrestling club at the Y. He smiled and said that there wasn't, but he'd be glad to teach me some moves. He later told me that my awkwardness was what attracted him to me and, by the way, we have been partners in life and lovers for the last 32 years.

I'm writing this to encourage every guy that it's never too late and to be brave because there is another guy out there who wants exactly WHO YOU ARE...AS IS. Be brave and trust that who you are right now is exactly right for another guy. I wish you well.

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