Bill Weintraub

Re: The Trap of Anti-Masculinity

2-25-09

Thank you Joe.

And welcome to the Alliance.

Guys, Joe's post is excellent, and I encourage you to re-read it.

Now, I've been corresponding with Joe, who's in his late teens, and in one of his emails he told me how the internet influenced his thinking about sex when he was younger:

Before I found your sites, I was exposed to analist pornography on the Internet unfortunately. Around the time, or some time before, I found your site I was fed up with all the analist and kink-type stuff. It's sad that I looked at analist 'porn' when I was 16. It brainwashed me a lot when I was younger, although I never tried anything with anyone.

...

Regarding the Internet thing when I was fifteen, I had wanted to look at male (and female) nudity, which gradually/eventually led to being exposed to pornography. I learned about 'auto-fellatio', which I developed a bit of a brief 'fixation' on. I've never been able to do it, and for the most part I've never thought about it either. Not only is Frot infinitely better than anal, it's also better than oral. So I prefer thinking about Frot if I have the time. (Nevertheless I've found it strange that in the past months I've had dreams about auto-fellatio although I haven't really consciously thought about it).

Next came general 'gay' pornography since I found that I liked looking at the male body more, or it's what I was more attracted to, which was what I assumed. So there were images of masturbation, oral, and the one really bad thing, anal. I got somewhat used to it at the time in pornography, yet I can't say I ever really liked looking at the anal stuff. Yet it did influence me. There were a few times when I fingered myself anally when masturbating. Yet it never made me feel good so I never did it frequently, yet I regret that I ever even tried that. Sticking anything in my butt, even just a finger, for a pseudo-sexual purpose was stupid. For the most part that was when I was 15/16.

Who knows what would have happened if I never found your site, since it woke me up to the idea that the phallus/penis is sacred. The Internet, etc. had brainwashed me into thinking that the penis is something ugly, or just a 'sexual tool'; yet your site (and its pictures of Frot) offered a completely different alternative. I had never seen anything like it before. At first I felt that what you were saying about anal and effeminacy was critical, which it was, yet I wasn't used to that kind of 'criticism' yet. In my society I had grown accustomed, since I was young, to thinking that perhaps anal is actually okay. There is even 'propaganda' of many forms for hetero anal, so despite my parent's natural fear of anal, I unfortunately almost considered it normal, although it was something I never really thought about. So how could I consider something, which I seldom thought about, 'sexual'? My fantasies with women were genital-genital, yet for some reason I was never really able to imagine fantasies with guys in my mind, although I gradually realized I was attracted to men more, and I think that hurt me a lot. I never really had an idea of frot by myself as far as I can remember, yet I never really fantasized about anal either, because subconsciously I knew it had nothing to do with love or making love. There was this emptiness where the cultivating of my natural masculinity should have been, yet all I had was loneliness, confused desire, depression, etc. Your site is the only place natural masculinity is valued in our modern age -- and it also has a lot of intelligent writing and meaningful discussion. I read a lot from when I found it and up to now.

Because seriously, on other places on the Internet when I was younger, that weren't even dedicated to porn, there were even links to utterly disgusting videos and images of things as extreme as a guy removing the glans/head of his penis or something. Whether it was real or not, the image itself portrays 'castration' and is anti-masculine. ANTI-MAN.

So -- Joe had begun, when still quite young, and due to his internet experiences, experimenting with anal -- fingering himself anally while masturbating.

And, he reasonably asks, "Who knows what would have happened if I never found your site?"

It's a good question.

Interestingly, Joe has a female confidante, an older person, who he told about the Alliance, and who, he told me, "essentially hates you."

Joe's confidante hates me because our pro-Masculine stance violates her idea of how "homosexuals" should behave.

Her thinking in that regard is basically feminist, with more than a touch of neo-Freudianism tossed in, and not at all original.

Nor is it to the benefit of Joe, about whom she claims to care.

It was also apparent to me, from what Joe said, that his confidante's thinking was being influenced by what are often called "issues" she had with other people in Joe's family, including Joe's mother, and with her own son.

And with Joe too.

This is what I said to Joe about all that:

Your confidante has issues -- with your mother, with you, with her own son.

Now -- what about me?

Do I have issues with your mother?

No.

Do I have issues with you?

No.

I do have an agenda.

About which I'm very open.

I have the same agenda with you as I do with other every Man:

Frot, not anal.

Fidelity, not promiscuity.

Masculinity, not effeminacy.

The three are inter-related.

You can't really tease one out from the other.

But -- let's take the first one first, because with a young person like yourself, that one really matters.

Joe, you told me you came across the Alliance at a point in your life when you were beginning to be acculturated into analism.

And you had begun experimenting -- fingering your anus during masturbation, as I recall.

Had you not found the Alliance, that acculturation process would have gone forward -- and I can say, with a fair degree of certainty, that you would now be HIV+ and infected with hepatitis C and probably a number of other pathogens.

Why am I certain of that?

Because you're vulnerable -- in the sense that you develop crushes -- and you were hanging with gay-identified young people who were into anal and homeless; and you were also apparently encountering drug dealers as part of that milieu.

Obviously, gay-identified kids who are doing anal and drugs -- and are homeless to boot -- are at tremendous risk for HIV and all the other anally-vectored diseases.

Diseases I talk about in my reply to Joe's post You people are changing lives.

And of course in an anus is not a vagina

There are a lot of diseases.

This is what would have happened to you:

And let's forget the guy who you had the crush on and who robbed you.

Let's forget him for the moment.

We'll invent someone, we'll call him Robert, he's a little older than you, a tad bigger and more muscular, and he's another gay-identified young guy, who's been homeless off and on, he's now sharing an apartment with a guy who deals occasionally or more than occasionally, and you meet Robert and you develop a crush.

Robert sees that, and he starts having sex with you.

He expects you to bottom and you do.

But you want to be "safe," so you make him use condoms.

And he goes along with that for a while.

Because that's what guys like Robert do.

And after a couple weeks or a couple months, he says to you one night, Joe I really love you and I want to be close to you --

and you say Sure.

So he fucks you without a condom.

Maybe he fucks you for a couple weeks without condoms.

And then he leaves you.

Because that's what happens.

It's a common scenario.

A guy like you -- very often -- gets infected not through promiscuous sex, but through sex with a partner who you thought really loved you.

But he didn't love you -- he was just using you.

And once he's gotten sexually from you what he wants -- he's outta there.

But you've got HIV and hep C.

And he no doubt convinced you to do oral-anal too, so that you've got -- giardia, for example.

Or maybe meningitis.

And maybe you live and maybe you don't.

Robert doesn't care.

I care.

Robert doesn't.

That's what would have happened to you Joe, if you hadn't found our sites.

And if your confidante "essentially hates" me, as you say, there's something really wrong with her.

Because I'm keeping you alive -- in the sense of helping you avoid anally-vectored diseases.

Condoms will not keep you alive -- not in that sense.

Condoms fail, they slip, they break, guys don't use them correctly, or use them inconsistently, are dis-inhibited by them, they have more sex, they have riskier sex -- and guys get infected.

They get infected because they're doing anal.

Anal is extremely efficient at transmitting HIV and most other STI.

That's why we currently have more than 600,000 gay-identified and other "men who have sex with men" in the US alone who are infected with HIV.

600,000.

That's a lot.

Despite twenty-three years of "condom campaigns" directed at gay-identified males telling them to use a condom, "every time, every time," they do anal -- we have 600,000 "MSM" infected with HIV.

That tells you a lot about the efficacy of condoms.

So: condoms are not the answer.

The answer is -- don't do anal.

Don't do anal, you don't get anally-vectored diseases;

don't do oral-anal, don't get those diseases;

don't do oral, you don't get those diseases.

Whereas -- Your chance of getting a disease from Frot is miniscule.

So -- your confidante's opinions about sexuality -- and Bill Weintraub -- are

1. Incorrect; and

2. Not working in your best interests.

And that's the truth.

Unfortunately, there are a lot of people like Joe's confidante.

They put ideology ahead of the welfare of the boys and men in their lives.

So -- Joe found our sites, and those sites did two things for him:

They helped keep him free of disease;

and they affirmed for him his innate sense of the Phallus as Sacred.

No one else would have or could have done that for him.

Now, in his post Joe talks about changes which occurred between his childhood and his adolescence:

When I was young in elementary school, I was more ebullient and 'extroverted'. There was a time when I was fairly interested in Greek mythology and Ancient Greece. Yet the older I got, the more alienated I felt. I never really played sports much, I wasn't part of a 'male group', I didn't maintain any consistent long-term (male) friendships, and my family moved a lot. I came to feel like the odd man out, unstable and fragile, and I didn't have enough confidence to form any real masculine friendships.

This is a very common story.

Prior to puberty, Joe was "ebullient and extroverted."

And he was interested in Greek mythology and ancient Greece.

But as he entered into adolescence, he began to feel alienated.

Why?

Because of heterosexualization.

Under heterosexualization, in puberty, as their same-sex feelings grow stronger, boys like Joe are shunted into -- and self-isolate in -- the analist ghetto.

They grow up lacking a masculine male group, and thus lacking in Natural Masculinity.

What do I mean by that?

Well, as the person I refer to as "my foreign friend" points out, and as we discuss in The Power of the Masculine, exclusive "heterosexuality," which today is the ideal of human relationships in the West, is an anomaly -- among humans historically and cross-culturally, and even among other mammals.

Again, "heterosexuality" is an anomaly.

"Heterosexuality" as we know and experience it in the West is the result of a process of progressive heterosexualization, a process which is unprecedented in human history.

My foreign friend:

If there is no heterosexual society there would be no homosexuals. And no heterosexuals either. Male-male sex is isolated only because in the western society, its spaces and its customs are completely heterosexualised (i.e. made mixed gender with pressures to be heterosexual). But heterosexual spaces are themselves unnatural --- and it was only through financial and technological power brought by industrialisation that the western society could create such an artificial unnatural heterosexual environment.

As society heterosexualizes, same-sex affection, intimacy, love, and sex -- is marginalized and medicalized, and what was once an activity -- sex between men -- becomes first a medical condition -- "homosexuality" -- and then a "sexual orientation" -- "gay."

And "gay" in turn becomes a ghetto -- the "gay male community" -- what we call analism.

My foreign friend:

Gay men are one of the most ardent supporters of heterosexualisation. They represent the dust bin created by the heterosexualised society to contain the mutilated/ negativised remnants of male-male sex that survives after the intense oppression of them in the mainstream...

Gay men ... derive immense power from the heterosexual society. In fact they owe the heterosexual society their existence.

And of course that's correct.

Absent heterosexualization and "heterosexual society," there would be no "gay men."

When males are shunted or self-isolate into a gay space at an early age, they usually miss out on a crucial part of the male socialization process -- membership in a masculine-identified, all-male group during adolescence.

Here's my foreign friend as quoted in our post titled Natural Masculinity and Phallic Bonding:

Masculine identified men are endowed with a 'seed' of natural masculinity which needs a conducive, supportive social environment to develop / grow to its full potential.

Natural masculinity is defined simply as the feeling or inner sense of being a man.

If a positive social environment is denied to a man, or if it is hostile, the natural masculinity will not grow to its full potential. Rather it could be seriously throttled or suppressed.

Masculine male groups and bonds play an extremely important role in the development of physical, mental, emotional and social aspects of natural masculinity. As such they are an important part of the positive environment that all masculine identified boys should have. An otherwise masculine identified man who is deprived of membership in a masculine male group / bond during his growing years will be less than 1/4th naturally masculine than if he had such an opportunity. Masculine identified boys have a natural tendency to seek to join male-only groups, and it's their natural right.

The masculinity of men flows from their group. It's like their natural masculinity combines and gets manifold when masculine identified men unite. The camaraderie, mutual understanding, support, playing together, learning the ways of the world as a male, dealing with roughs and toughs of life together --- they all help to develop the natural masculinity that exists within him.

An intimate sexual relationship between two masculine men is equally important for the mutual development of their natural masculinity.

The social classification of "sexual orientation" which is actually a social mechanism to isolate male-male sexual behavior from heterosexual spaces and group it with the third sex under a combined 'homosexual' label, takes away this much needed right from a masculine-identified boy who is strongly in touch with his same-sex feelings.

The heterosexual society has artificially engineered such a strong hostility for same-sex desires in the straight space that such a boy will automatically psychologically keep out of this group. He may linger on the margins of this space by hiding and suppressing his feelings, which is very stressful.

Thus, in effect, he will not get the chance to hang around with the guys as an 'equal', to play sports with them, to grow with them like normal boys should. Thus he will not know how to relate with masculine men --- or how to relate with others as a masculine man. He will have an underdeveloped masculinity --- something which in nature he is entitled to.

Just like association with masculine identified males is essential for a masculine identified male, and enhances his natural masculinity several times, association with feminized males can seriously deplete his natural masculinity, even pave the way for an unnatural development and effeminacy.

Thus when a masculine-identified young man associates himself with the gay group --- psychologically made to believe he is one of them --- he will find himself a misfit in the strongly third-sex gay culture. But since there is no other social space for him, he will force himself to relate with the gays.

The entire experience will subdue his natural masculinity and make him more effeminate. Although he will still be 'macho', compared to the real gays.

But such a masculine identified 'gay' identified man will just become a vulnerable, unsure and maladjusted man --- commonly known as "nice guy" --- a description often used for non-feminine gay men whose masculinity is suppressed.

It must be emphasized that even though in natural conditions masculine male groups are extremely helpful for masculine identified men, because of a lot of social manipulation, and unless guided in the positive direction, they can develop a man's masculinity in the negative direction -- which is destructive for the self and others. It can also harm the individual by making him suppress his same-sex needs which are the basis of a man's natural positive masculinity.

A masculine man, who was deprived of the opportunity to develop his natural masculinity as a boy, can really benefit from a deep, intimate, preferably sexual relationship with a 'masculine' man who did have such an opportunity. As that intimacy helps his masculinity grow now, as well as it 'rubs off' some of the masculinity that the partner gathered from his group experiences.

So:

My foreign friend says that "If a positive social environment is denied to a man, or if it is hostile, the natural masculinity will not grow to its full potential. Rather it could be seriously throttled or suppressed."

And we can see that that's what happened to Joe:

the older I got, the more alienated I felt. I never really played sports much, I wasn't part of a 'male group', I didn't maintain any consistent long-term (male) friendships, and my family moved a lot. I came to feel like the odd man out, unstable and fragile, and I didn't have enough confidence to form any real masculine friendships.

You'll notice that my foreign friend speaks of masculine groups helping their members learn to deal with "the roughs and toughs of life together."

I just saw this report in the New York Times on the importance of play in childhood:

Playtime and nature time [time in the out-of-doors] are important not only for learning but also for health and development.

Young rats denied opportunities for rough-and-tumble play develop numerous social problems in adulthood. They fail to recognize social cues and the nuances of rat hierarchy; they aren't able to mate. ...

Of course human beings aren't rats.

And the article, which is about the importance of recess at school, isn't differentiating between pre-pubescent and adolescent children.

But clearly something necessary and important happens among adolescent males in their all-male groups -- including what we in America call "rough-and-tumble" and what my foreign friend calls the "roughs and toughs of life" -- which includes learning how to Fight.

Once again, my foreign friend:

If a positive social environment is denied to a man, or if it is hostile, the natural masculinity will not grow to its full potential. Rather it could be seriously throttled or suppressed.

Once again, Joe:

the older I got, the more alienated I felt. I never really played sports much, I wasn't part of a 'male group', I didn't maintain any consistent long-term (male) friendships, and my family moved a lot. I came to feel like the odd man out, unstable and fragile, and I didn't have enough confidence to form any real masculine friendships.

And that's where Joe is now.

And because you guys refuse to put together Regional Chapters, Joe remains there.

There's no one and no place in the real world to which I can direct him.

That's a problem.

And a problem that's directly related to your cowardice, sloth, and greed.

You'll notice also that Joe said that when he was a boy, he was interested in the Greeks.

A boy like Joe is naturally attracted to the ancient Greeks.

But as I've talked about elsewhere, analist culture by and large writes off the Greeks.

It has to, because analist values -- anal, promiscuity, and effeminacy -- were anathema to the Greeks --

who prohibited anal penetration, derided promiscuity, and celebrated masculinity among Men -- not who had sex with men -- but who LOVED other Men.

Big difference.

Which is why I say that the Greek word for same-sex Love -- Eros -- is not the same as what we conceive of as "homosexuality."

Again, Eros is NOT homosexuality.

I sometimes think that if could get just a few of you to understand that one simple point -- we'd have gotten somewhere after all these years.

So let's give it a shot:

EROS is not "homosexuality"

"homosexuality" is about disease, genetic anomalies, and lust.

EROS is about Virtue, Men, and Love.

That's an enormous difference.

So long as you conceive of your life in terms of "homosexuality" -- or, if you prefer, "being gay" -- you will be forever fucked -- both metaphorically and literally.

What's core here is what my foreign friend has said and which the Greeks exemplify:

male sexual desire for men cannot be tied down to a minority group. Rather it is a universal male phenomenon, especially strong amongst masculine identified men

Eros is not about "homosexuality."

Eros is about MEN.

I develop this crucial point more fully in my reply to Warrior Chris's post reclaiming our nobility as men.

In that sense, Joe's post and Chris's are meant to be read together.

So I hope you'll check out Chris's post as well.

I thank Joe for his post.

I hope he finds the support he needs.

Joe's what I call a true Warrior.

But he needs other WARRIORS -- not faux warriors, but true Warriors -- to help him.

Not to prey on him sexually, but to help him grow into full Manhood.

Joe said, and it's beautifully said:

I share the belief, like so many others on this site, that the Phallus is Sacred; that Masculinity is a Natural Spiritual Gift; that Honor, Morality, Respect, and Man are harmonious; and that FROT is a Holy Sacrament.

I wonder how many others of you actually share those beliefs.

No doubt some of you will write to Joe, who's young, and claim to share those beliefs.

But what have you ever DONE to demonstrate that that's true?

What?

So -- if you're thinking of writing to Joe, who, like I say, is young, and presenting yourself to him as the Man he needs --

you'd better be able to prove to me, Bill Weintraub, who's not young, and who's been around the block more than once -- that you are what you say you are.

A Man.

You'd better be able to prove it.

Because Joe's already been taken advantage of by the analists.

He doesn't need to be taken advantage of by guys who claim to be anti-analist -- but who in reality are just as shallow and hollow as they are.

Joe:

• the Phallus is Sacred;

• Masculinity is a Natural Spiritual Gift;

• Honor, Morality, Respect, and Man are harmonious; and

• FROT is a Holy Sacrament.

Let's look at just the third point.

"Honor, Morality, Respect, and Man are harmonious."

The Greeks too believed that.

Their system of Eros -- of Manly Love -- was predicated on that belief.

Indeed, a universe in which Honor, Morality, Respect, and Man were not harmonious -- would have been unthinkable to them.

The whole point to existence was that a Man nurture and develop his own Virtue, Valour, and Manhood, and thus bring himself into accord with the cosmos, a cosmos which was based on 'kalokagathia,' beauty-and-goodness.

Classicist Werner Jaeger:

This 'beauty' or 'good', this kalokagathia in its pure state is, we understand, the highest principle of all human will and action, the ultimate motive which works with its own inward necessity, and at the same time the ground for all that happens in nature.

So Joe seeks, as did Greek Men before him, to live in concord with nature, and with his Masculinity, which he says is a Natural Spiritual Gift.

He wants a life in which Honor, Morality, Respect, and Man -- are in harmony.

Who among you can help him realize that?

In his inaugural address, President Obama, quoting General Washington, spoke of "hope and virtue."

Hope and Virtue.

Who among you can offer Joe -- Hope and Virtue?

Who?

Bill Weintraub

February 25, 2009

© All material Copyright 2009 by Bill Weintraub. All rights reserved.

---

Brian Hulme

Re: The Trap of Anti-Masculinity

3-6-2009

Welcome Joe, how about setting up a "we really need a MANS space" cyber space on the Alliance web site to help us get a Regional Chapter? I don't know if you are a Christian but Jesus is at the site so no problem! But you say the Phallus is Sacred also Masculinity is a Natural Spiritual Gift so a Spiritual Masculine Warrior Welcome To The Man2Man Alliance

Love

Brian

Bill Weintraub

Re: The Trap of Anti-Masculinity

3-7-2009

Thank you Brian.

Guys -- if you want to respond to Brian and Joe's call for a MANS space

all you need do is respond to this post and say --

Yes!

I want a Regional Chapter in my area and I'll help in setting one up.

Bill

Michael Plante

Re: The Trap of Anti-Masculinity

3-9-2009

Always nice to see new, and young, blood on the site. I hope you'll stick around Joe, this is, by far, the best site for like minded guys like us to get together, share ideas, and finally express ourselves as men instead of whatever society dictates we should express ourselves as. Bill is a great teacher, and I've learned a lot from coming to, and coming back to this place. Hopefully, you'll be giving as much back to the site as you take from it. Welcome to the Alliance, Joe, may victory be ours.

Brian, as for your MANS space idea, I like it. Get me the info and I'll be glad to help if I can. I'm a bit busy, though, what with it being the middle of my second semester, but I'll do whatever I can.

Bill Weintraub

Re: The Trap of Anti-Masculinity

3-9-2009

Thank you Michael.

In an email, Michael said he'd like to have a way that he and the other "young bloods" could correspond.

So I'm setting up a message thread titled Alliance Youth.

And in this thread, guys who are 18 or older, and under 30, can post their names and email addresses; any autobio info they want to mention; and they can list posts and/or replies or other articles they have on the site.

So someone like Michael might say, I'm a student, I live in Indiana, and my first post for the Alliance was An Indiana Man Speaks.

Now -- will Alliance Youth attract people claiming to be under 30 who are well over 40 or 50 or 60?

Sure --

It's the internet.

People lie because they can.

The way to deal with those people is to NOT TALK ABOUT SEX.

If you don't talk about sex -- if you don't engage in sex chat -- those guys will go away.

Now, as to MAN SPACE.

All you have to do is put together a Regional Chapter in your area.

You're going to have to do that eventually -- because this cannot just stay on the net.

And guess what?

The guy who puts himself out there and actually organizes his local chapter will reap many rewards.

For one thing, he'll get to interview all the applicants.

That means he gets to meet them -- first.

That's a great advantage.

But that's not all.

In a recent email, Frances said, regarding Chris's Reclaiming Our Nobility as Men,

It's good that Chris is looking for guidance from you, and has the sense to want your guidance. He seems to want to actively change the culture, not just his personal circumstances, and has the desire to learn from you and put that learning to use for the community. He's a willing soldier who wants to be of use, but also needs the sustenance of a community of like-minded.

And that's correct.

Chris is a willing soldier who recognizes that he needs the sustenance of a community of like-minded Men.

Which you ALL do.

And then Frances added:

I don't know that people only motivated by a narrow vision of themselves and not an ideal of community will ever change anything.

Frances is correct.

People motivated only by a narrow vision of themselves and not an ideal of community -- will never change a thing.

You need to begin constructing communities in the real world.

It will be difficult -- it will be hard work -- it will mean getting off the net and facing reality --

but that's what you have to do.

I thank everyone who's posted in this thread.

Joe is passionate in his beliefs.

I hope that through the Alliance he meets Men -- and a Man -- whose passion merits his own.

Bill Weintraub

© All material Copyright 2009 by Bill Weintraub. All rights reserved.

Joe

Re: The Trap of Anti-Masculinity

3-14-2009

I'd like to thank you all for your responses to my post. They're greatly appreciated. Life has been kind of stressful for me in the past months, and I think this is a good step in improving my character as a Man. By becoming less petty and weak I think I can make a change for the better.

Here's a quote from The I Ching (or Book of Changes), based on The Richard Wilhelm Translation, and rendered into English by Cary F. Baynes. It's from 41. Sun / Decrease (p. 159):

Decrease does not under all circumstances mean something bad. Increase and decrease come in their own time. What matters here is to understand the time and not to try to cover up poverty with empty pretense. If a time of scanty resources brings out an inner truth, one must not feel ashamed of simplicity. For simplicity is then the very thing needed to provide inner strength for further undertakings. Indeed, there need be no concern if the outward beauty of the civilization, even the elaboration of religious forms, should have to suffer because of simplicity. One must draw on the strength of the inner attitude to compensate for what is lacking in externals; then the power of the content makes up for the simplicity of form. There is no need of presenting false appearances to God. Even with slender means, the sentiment of the heart can be expressed.

Once again, thanks for the support.

Joe