In my reply, I sent Jim our standard Man2Man Alliance welcome letter, and said the following:

Hey Jim,

Thank you for writing to me and for your kind words about my work and our sites.

I'm glad they've resonated and been meaningful for you.

Let's take a look:

Every so often I look at your site and it's really good.

Thank you Jim.

Jim, I encourage you to spend more time on the site -- and since the site is very large, this letter contains some suggested links which might help guide and structure your reading.

Unfortunately, anal is so popular now and I just don't get it. For some reason I thought when AIDS happened, anal would somehow disappear. It used to be frowned upon and now it's praised.

Yes, Jim -- that's all correct -- 100% correct.

The why's and wherefore's of that I address in a number of articles which can be found in the Frot: The Next Sexual Revolution section of the site.

And you may want to start with the title article:

Frot: The Next Sexual Revolution

But -- basically -- we now have a dominant paradigm or culture in the gay community -- which I call analism -- and which dominates gay male life:

A whole new generation is into, even teenagers; I've read some of their comments on Myspace pages.

Yes -- that too is correct, and is part of a culture of sexual libertinism which has spread very rapidly.

I talk about that in Multipartnered Pansexualism or Heroic Love.

That article dates from 2004 -- but it's still valid.

The problem, Jim, and as you note, is that any critique of anal is immediately shouted down -- by the analist left.

While folks on the religious right don't want any discussion of sexual alternatives for gay- and bi- identified men because those alternatives are very low risk.

A few times I posted links to your site,

Jim, thank you!

That's probably the single most important thing you can do.

Post links.

As much as you can.

Please please please keep doing that.

and for the most part, it gets ignored. Well, maybe not by everyone, but the vocal ones get mad that anyone would have the nerve to put down anal sex.

Right.

But please keep posting those links.

Because we cannot allow the analists to silence us.

Nor do they have the right to do that.

They have to learn and accept that not all guys who have sex with guys do anal --

that it's never right to pressure someone into doing anal --

and that there are actually far, far better ways for guys to have sex with guys -- than anal.

On this site here, despite what the man says about his partner [-- that he's experiencing a lot of fecal incontinence as a result of being penetrated anally --], most of the people are telling him to keep doing it. The hell with the poor guy with leakage.

Right -- that's typical.

These people believe that if it's not anal, it's not gay.

And nothing else matters:

"You're not really gay if you don't get fucked."

That's a lie -- but they believe it.

And guys, I discuss at more length the fecal incontinence issue, as well as the problems created by the many anally-vectored diseases, in my reply to Warrior Joe's You people are changing lives.

Another post on the same website, a man was asking how he could take a bigger cock into his ass. He's taken 8" but wants to take more.

Right -- that's analist culture at work.

It's very destructive -- literally.

I don't get it, but just to let you know that people do appreciate your site.

Thank you again Jim.

I posted a link to it on Craigs list one time and a few guys said that it was the way to go!

Right -- and again Jim, that's the MOST IMPORTANT (sorry for the caps) thing you can do.

Please continue posting links.

Craigs List is an excellent place to do that.

Let guys know there are alternatives.

You can point them to Frot Club if you want: http://www.heroichomosex.org/fc/fchome/

or just The Man2Man Alliance:

http://www.Man2ManAlliance.org

Jim, thank you again for writing.

Jim's second email:

Thank you for all of those links. I will certainly check them out. From what I read in various forums, people now ask their doctors about anal sex and the doctors say it's completely okay, and if you ever check them out, even healthsites on the net say it's okay. Gay.com isn't really even a sex site yet this man who calls himself a doctor does not even discourage anal. That's why these days it's almost a losing battle to discourage anal sex, despite AIDS cases being on the increases for young men in NY.

And there are these guys who refer to themselves as power bottoms and act like they are wonderful because they can accomodate a man any size. I would think a man would not want to effeminize himself by not being equal to another man, and acting like his anus is a vagina. Yes, they call their anus a pussy or a mancunt.

And I was reading this man's posts, and he claims to have never penetrated another man. He uses the name ExtraCapacity. He's been a bottom his entire life. He's legally married in the state of MA, but he and his partner have anal sex with strangers they meet off the internet. He's considered somewhat of a hero. Kind of sad. And I noticed on a lot of these forums that if you say you're not into it, they act like you're the bad guy.

Yes, I will continue to posts links to your site. I am very sickened by this anal shit, literally.

And I forgot to include it, but this is on a site called Eurobear.com. All of these sites promote anal sex. I really feel sorry for young guys now. This is what they think being gay is all about.

From Eurobear:

A nice hairy asshole just asks to get licked. For the connoisseur it is a delicacy in its own right. But it can also be a good lead-in to some more in-depth anal fun.

It will help the sphincter or orbicular muscle to relax a bit in advance. In itself, rimming - also known as 'eating (or licking) ass' - carries no danger of HIV transmission.

Nevertheless, it is possible to catch the hepatitis A and B virus by rimming. The A type comes via feces, and the B type you get via mucus and blood in the anus. If you lick someone who has anal gonorrhea, you run the risk of contracting gonorrhea in your throat. ...

:: Fucking

There are still people who think that an ass is just something to sit on or shit through. Fortunately most of us know better. Butt fucking is a favorite pastime for many men. ...

However experienced you may be and however big a cock you may be able to take: rectums are saturated with so many tiny capillaries that it is inevitable that at least one of those blood vessels is going to break during fucking. More than likely you won't notice anything.

Bill's reply to Jim's second email:

Hey Jim

It's great to hear back from you!

Let's take a look:

Thank you for all of those links.

Jim, you're very welcome and I hope you'll read them.

They'll strengthen and empower you.

I will certainly check them out.

Great!

From what I read in various forums, people now ask their doctors about anal sex and the doctors say it's completely okay, and if you ever check them out, even healthsites on the net say it's okay.

Okay.

If it's a true "health site," like gayhealth.com, they actually put a lot of caveats in what they say.

You're right that they support anal -- wholeheartedly -- and tell people it's okay -- but they do talk about risk.

For example, Stephen Goldstone, who's an MD and FACS -- and an ano-rectal surgeon -- is careful on his gayhealth.com site to warn people that there are a lot of risks.

Here's some of Goldstone

STDs: Anal sex is the highest risk sex act that men who have sex with men can perform. Virtually every STD can pass between partners during anal sex, and for most, penetration isn't necessary and a condom may not protect you. STDs are harder to diagnose when they are inside your anal canal and not on your penis. STDs commonly passed during anal sex include: HIV, herpes simplex, gonorrhea, syphilis, molluscum contagiosum, crabs, human papillomavirus (HPV), hepatitis, and chlamydia.

...

Anal sex is the highest risk sex act two men can perform -- and not just because of HIV. Most sexually transmitted diseases (STDS) can pass between partners during close skin-to-skin contact when a penis rubs against your anus -- and vice versa. Infections travel both ways.

...

News flash: an anus is not a vagina. Your anus is only 1 to 2 inches long and connects to the rest of your colon. The colon's main function is to absorb water from the liquid waste that leaves your small intestines so that by the time it reaches your anus it is solid material.... It is this heightened absorptive capacity that makes your rectum so good at trapping STDs.

...

So Goldstone does warn people of the STD risks.

And also the mechanical risks such as incontinence and perforation.

And we discuss all those risks at more length in an anus is not a vagina.

But you're right that he supports anal and de facto encourages guys to do anal.

You're absolutely right about that.

It's like that excerpt you sent from "eurobear"

The guy says that

the inside of an ass always bleeds during fucking!

However experienced you may be and however big a cock you may be able to take: rectums are saturated with so many tiny capillaries that it is inevitable that at least one of those blood vessels is going to break during fucking.

And he's right about that.

And then he goes ahead and tells people to do anal anyway.

Gay.com isn't really even a sex site yet this man who calls himself a doctor does not even discourage anal.

Right.

That guy isn't an MD -- he claims to be a "sexologist" -- but you're correct -- they don't discourage it.

They claim that they're "honoring diversity" and that "it's all sex and it's all good."

But that's not true.

When we try to put forward Frot -- which is diversity -- we're shouted down.

And anal is not, in the genital sense, sex.

And it's not good.

That's why these days it's almost a losing battle to discourage anal sex, despite AIDS cases being on the increases for young men in NY.

And everywhere else too.

As for this being "almost a losing battle":

Jim, as I explain in my work, analism is a dominant culture.

The hallmarks of a dominant culture are that it dominates -- it's all-pervasive -- and that it seeks to censor and silence opposing points of view.

Analism is a classic dominant culture in both regards.

But that doesn't mean it will never change.

Cultures change.

It takes time.

And it takes dissent.

That's why it's important for you to continue to post links and otherwise dissent wherever you can.

In point of fact, our sites are very busy and I get a LOT of letters like yours.

Nevertheless, at this moment, the buttboys are still able to shout us down.

But that will NOT always be true.

Just won't.

And there are these guys who refer to themselves as power bottoms and act like they are wonderful because they can accomodate a man any size.

Right.

I would think a man would not want to effeminize himself by not being equal to another man, and acting like his anus is a vagina. Yes, they call their anus a pussy or a mancunt

Yeah, I know.

That's all part of the culture, which denigrates masculinity and supports various forms of effeminacy.

And which buys into the lie that "men who have sex with men" are in some fundamental way different from "other" men.

In reality, as we know from both history and anthropology, in cultures which lack a divine prohibition against same-sex sex -- guys have sex with guys virtually universally -- and usually very openly.

So: guys have sex with guys.

Always have.

Always will.

It's natural for men to do that -- ALL men.

The "medical model of homosexuality," which dominated from the 19th century until -- in theory -- 1973 -- taught that "homosexuality" was a disease -- which was limited to a tiny minority of "inverts."

In 1973 that model was rejected by the American Psychiatric Association.

But the gay movement then and nevertheless made "homosexuality" aka "being gay" and "homosexuals" aka "gays" into a separate category of human being.

So -- sexual orientation in my view is just another form of the medical model.

It treats sex between men as a condition -- "being gay" -- rather than an activity -- having sex.

And these sites you've been visiting and the gay-identified males who use them have made "gay" and "homosexual" the focus of their entire being.

They have to believe that they're in some way different from other human beings.

That belief and identity in effect gives them their reason for being alive.

But, and again, historically, sex between men has just been an activity -- something guys do -- it wasn't considered a condition until 1869 and the coining of the word "homosexual."

And I was reading this man's posts, and he claims to have never penetrated another man. He uses the name ExtraCapacity. He's been a bottom his entire life. He's legally married in the state of MA, but he and his partner have anal sex with strangers they meet off the internet. He's considered somewhat of a hero.

Yeah, within that culture, in which the word "hero" is completely meaningless.

Kind of sad.

Yes it is.

And I noticed on a lot of these forums that if you say you're not into it, they act like you're the bad guy.

Yes -- because that's what a dominant culture does.

Yes, I will continue to posts links to your site.

Great!

Jim, let me know also if you'd like me to post parts of your first email and this one on our Personal Stories board

That's a good way to introduce yourself to the other guys in the Alliance.

I am very sickened by this anal shit, literally.

I hear you.

I agree.

And I forgot to include it, but this is on a site called Eurobear. All of these sites promote anal sex. I really feel sorry for young guys now

Right.

This is what they think being gay is all about.

Right.

And that's an enormous problem.

Because a kid who thinks he might be "gay" will hit the net nowadays when he's 10 or 11 years old.

And what he sees is anal anal anal.

And what he hears is that "you're not really gay if you don't get fucked."

So by the time he's 13 or 14, that's what he thinks men who have sex with men do -- get fucked.

And that's why so many of the young guys you see on those sites identify as "bottoms."

Okay Jim good guy.

All for now.

Thank you for writing back.

Please let me know if you'd like me to post you in Personal Stories.

Bill

Jim's third email:

You should join some of these forums, since the way you explain it makes sense. Mostly everyone else gets mocked and bullied by the anal extremists if they are anti anal. People need to hear the other side, but unfortunately you would most likely be called homophobic.

I am very concerned about young guys, and how the net is influencing them. The net has changed young people dramatically. Some of them want to be bottoms because they will feel loved and needed by tops. They will post they are tops, bottoms, or versatile on many sites and some of them are so young, and they think they're doing some kind of service which is just plain weird. Some haven't even had sex yet, and they're already determining their position. They were not around in the early 1980's when AIDS first started, and how anal was shunned. I was in my early 20's at the time. Yes, we all want to be loved, but offering your ass to someone to be popular is downright degrading.

And I am so sick about hearing about condoms. Everyone keeps saying they are using them, and they give them away, but if that were true there would be no more AIDS--that is a fact. And these porn movies that show barebacking should be shut down, but they won't; they have freedom of expression, even if it's dangerous. Yes, they will say don't do this, but you can tell people to not drink but if you offer it to them they might take it.

I don't mind if you post what I wrote, but I would prefer you not put my e-mail. If you do have to put an e-mail, then I will give you another one to use.

Bill's response:

Hey Jim

It's great to hear back from you!

And you're right on as usual in your comments.

Jim, regarding this:

I don't mind if you post what I wrote, but I would prefer you not put my email. If you do have to put an e-mail, then I will give you another one to use.

Yes -- I'd like to post some of your comments -- because they're excellent.

But -- it's not necessary to have an email address attached.

It's simply that if you want other Alliance guys to be able to contact you -- you need an email address.

If that's not a priority for you -- it's not necessary.

Again, Jim, the single most important thing you can do -- is to continue doing what you're doing -- posting links.

That's very important -- and I can't thank you enough for doing it.

Re this:

And I am so sick about hearing about condoms. Everyone keeps saying they are using them, and they give them away, but if that were true there would be no more AIDS--that is a fact.

Right.

The condom issue is complex, but:

1. Even when used correctly and consistently, there's a 1.8% breakage and slippage rate -- and that's in vaginal -- with condoms.

Because the anus is far less elastic than the vagina, and is NOT self-lubricating, the FAILURE rate for anal is much higher.

One 1993 study reported condom failure rates in MSM anal penetration of 4.7% to 8%.

Thompson, JLP. Estimated condom failure and frequency of condom use among gay men. Am J Public Health. 1993; 83:10.

Personally, I think 8% is probably low.

But even so, that gives you about one chance in ten or twelve of the condom failing and you getting infected with whatever's in or on your partner's dick and semen.

So -- would you play Russian roulette with a gun with 100 chambers and 8 bullets?

I wouldn't.

2. Studies of "serodiscordant" heterosexual couples doing vaginal -- which is far gentler on the condom than anal -- and who claim to use condoms consistently -- show that over a year's time, 20% of the women get infected.

"Serodiscordant" means that the guy's poz and the woman neg.

Again, even with consistent condom use, over a year's time 20% of the women get infected.

3. Again, and as was in that eurobear excerpt you sent -- "rectums are saturated with so many tiny capillaries that it is inevitable that at least one of those blood vessels is going to break during fucking" -- the rectum is so vascular -- so full of blood vessels -- and so vulnerable that inconsistent use of condoms and/or incorrect use virtually guarantees infection.

So: for guys doing anal, inconsistent use is virtually as bad as NO use.

Because again, the anus and rectum are extraordinarily vulnerable -- far more vulnerable than the vagina, which is far tougher than the rectum.

And incorrect use is also significant.

Because there are six separate steps you have to go through to use a condom correctly.

Make a mistake in any of those six -- and the condom fails.

In addition, condoms are disinhibiting -- that is, guys who use condoms are more likely to have more partners, to be less choosy about their partners, and or course to do anal -- which is the highest risk "sex" act --

It comes down to this:

Condoms: breakage + slippage + incorrect use + inconsistent use + disinhibition = HIV and other sexually-transmitted infections.

That's why guys keep getting infected.

So long as they're doing anal -- they'll get infected.

Jim, this is our basic condom article:

Do Condoms Work?

It needs to be updated a bit -- but it's still sound.

Okay good guy.

All for now -- I'm in perpetual overwhelm here.

Thank you again and again.

Bill

Jim's fourth email:

Yes, you have permission to post whatever you'd like that I wrote, but leave out my e-mail address. At this time I'd prefer not to be contacted. To be honest, I don't really feel what I wrote is good enough for your site, but if you feel it's worthy of mentioning, then by all means, please post it. As I said, I've looked at your site every so often, and it offers so much hope for so many. It's all about friendship, love, bonding, monogamy, and yes, of course, people love sex, but it needs to be put in perspective, especially when you can die from it or get nasty STD's. People seem to think you're abnormal these days if you don't hook up, have friends with benefits, or sex on the first date. And what you wrote below is very informative. If you have forums on your site, I will gladly participate in them. Take care, Bill. You are a wonderful man and what you are doing is nothing short of heroic.

Jim

Bill's response:

Hey Jim

It's great to hear back from you -- and thank you for all your kind words.

To be honest, I don't really feel what I wrote is good enough for your site,

Sure it is!

Jim, we have many first-person accounts and statements like yours on the site.

They're indexed starting from the beginning (2000) here:

Warriors Speak.

And there are actually eight pages of indexes:

• Warriors Speak I.

• Warriors Speak II.

• Warriors Speak III.

• Warriors Speak IV.

• Warriors Speak V.

• Warriors Speak VI.

• Warriors Speak VII.

• Warriors Speak VIII.

The last page:

Warriors Speak VIII

lists every post starting with the most recent at the top of the list and going down.

There are a lot of pages -- more than 800 in Warriors Speak -- and many of them have multiple posts.

And the indexes on Warriors Speak I, and Warriors Speak II through Warriors Speak VI, have brief descriptions of each message thread.

As do some on Warriors Speak VII

So you might want to start reading through some of them.

Because you'll find a lot that resonates for you.

The point is that those statements don't have to be and most are not polished in a literary or any other sense.

They just have to be real.

That's what matters.

So -- when you say something like "I am very sickened by this anal shit, literally." -- there are other guys who feel the same way.

And when they read your words -- they're empowered and strengthened by them.

Because after all, they're not likely to hear something like that on "large penis support group" or "eurobear."

But they do hear it on our Alliance sites.

And when they do, they no longer feel like they're the only person in the world who doesn't like anal and the role of anal in gay male life.

So what's important isn't that your words be fancy -- but that they be heartfelt.

but if you feel it's worthy of mentioning, then by all means, please post it. As I said, I've looked at your site every so often, and it offers so much hope for so many. It's all about friendship, love, bonding, monogamy,

That's right.

and yes, of course, people love sex, but it needs to be put in perspective, especially when you can die from it or get nasty STD's. People seem to think you're abnormal these days if you don't hook up, have friends with benefits, or sex on the first date.

Right.

Jim, I write a lot about the ancient Greeks.

And the reason I do that is to present a different model of living to Men who Love Men.

For the Greeks, male-male relationships were about Fidelity.

And something else -- and here I'm quoting from a classicist named Werner Jaeger -- "the yearning for moral beauty."

Which means that to the Greeks, "Eros" -- which was their term for romantic and sexual love between Men -- had a "place in the moral structure of society."

So -- Love between Men used to be about morality.

And "moral beauty" was considered at least as important as physical beauty.

That's not pie in the sky --

that's the way it was.

And it can be again.

The culture which is in place now -- which I call analism -

- is an outgrowth of historical forces.

And as a culture, it's deeply amoral -- at best.

What was striking, for example, in that message thread about the guy with leakage, was that no one said to the boyfriend -- "it's morally wrong to physically damage your sexual partner."

But of course it is.

If you love someone -- or even if you don't -- his health is more important than whether you can fit a dick in his ass.

So the culture is amoral and immoral.

It runs on anal and promiscuity.

We can change that culture.

And that's what we intend to do.

I can't tell you how long that's going to take -- because it's difficult to predict the pace of cultural change.

But cultural change is a constant of human life.

So the culture will change.

If we speak out -- as you've been doing -- will we help the culture change more quickly?

Yes.

And what you wrote below is very informative. If you have forums on your site, I will gladly participate in them.

Okay.

Jim, all we have is the Personal Stories board.

Originally it was a message board like any other.

But then the buttboys started filling it with their nonsense.

And they vandalized it and filled it with spam.

So what I do now is ask that guys send me posts via email, and then I post them.

There's just no way to run that board as a regular forum because it gets vandalized -- like you wouldn't believe.

And right now I'm running behind in putting up posts.

But I have three posts in the hopper -- and I'm going to use some of the material you sent in at least two of them.

Because it's excellent.

Jim, thank you again for your kind words.

I'll let you know when any posts citing your letters to me go up.

May take a while -- but it'll happen.

Jim, thank you again.

Bill

Jim's fifth email:

Then by all means post my comments. I'll have to read those comments from other guys. There's so much on the site that someone could spend hours and still not read everything. I was unaware that people were vandalizing the site, so I understand why you don't allow an open forum.

And I wasn't aware that homosexuality was about love early on. For some reason I thought it was always about lust, getting off, and promiscuity. I guess that's what went wrong, and unfortunately it turned into a promiscuous nightmare. I heard on the radio recently that George Michael was caught once again having sex or trying to have sex in a public bathroom. I don't understand how anyone, especially someone famous, could stoop to that level.

But I guess this would play into what you said about how originally it was thought to be sexual behavior akin to heterosexuality, until it was actually defined as homosexuality in the 1800's and somehow was thought to be abnormal, and of course by the time the AMA removed it as some kind of disorder, the damage was already done.

Obviously that was a good thing to removed it from disorders, but unfortunately it seems like the first thing people think of when someone says they're gay is that they're promiscuous and that they have anal sex. They think they are somehow incapable of love and commitment, and they don't realize that the person may not even have anal. And when people see a couple and one is fem and the other masculine, they automatically assume the fem guy is the bottom, the wife, the submissive one.

Yes, that post about the man who couldn't take the cock spoke volumes. And I've read similar comments in forums where people will tell the top to dump the bottom, have him stretch himself with dildos, or have anal with other guys behind his back. What happened to respecting your lover and doing what's comfortable and satisfying for both of you? Sadly, people are so selfish they don't give a crap. I guess this is why bottoms are considered golden, and so many of them believe that they have this big ego and brag about how big a cock they can take--like it's a good thing! And the tops will try to make them feel good by saying "the bottom is in control". Sorry, I don't get any of it.

Anyway, it's very sad what happened to your lover, and he's looking down on you now--your guardian angel, and proud of what you are doing.

Take care!

Jim

Bill's response:

Hey Jim

It's great to hear back from you!

Let's take a look:

Then by all means post my comments.

Thank you Jim.

I'll have to read those comments from other guys. There's so much on the site that someone could spend hours and still not read everything.

Right.

And the reason we have so much -- is, in part, because there's so little anywhere else.

So there has to be a place -- at least, and for now, on the web -- where like-minded men can hear what each other has to say.

Has to be.

I was unaware that people were vandalizing the site, so I understand why you don't allow an open forum.

Yes.

But the forum is still there.

And I wasn't aware that homosexuality was about love early on.

Jim, that's a very important comment, and I'm really glad you made it.

It's very significant.

Jim, we have a Reading List --

and on it there's a book titled Same-Sex Unions in Premodern Europe.

It's by John Boswell, who was the openly gay chair of the history department at Yale until his death from AIDS in 1995.

Chapter 3 of Boswell's book is an on-the-whole excellent summary of the ancient world.

Here are some excerpts:

Most ancient writers -- in striking opposition to their modern counterparts -- generally entertained higher expectations of the fidelity and permanence of homosexual passions than of heterosexual feelings.

Plutarch adduces with evident disapproval cases of husbands who allowed their wives to be unfaithful to gain some advantage, and then notes, "By contrast, of all the many [same-sex] lovers there were and have been, do you know of a single one who surrendered his beloved, even to gain favor from Zeus? I do not." (Erotikos 760B).

The proponent of same-sex passion in the Hellenistic Affairs of the Heart says that wisdom and experience teach that love between males is the most stable of loves. This prejudice [sic] was doubtless influenced by the Symposium of Plato, in which heterosexual relationships and feelings are characterized as "vulgar," and their same-sex equivalents as "heavenly."

This contrast exercised wide influence on subsequent discussions of love.

~ Boswell, 74.

Doubtless the most surprising and counter-intuitive aspect of same-sex eroticism was not its frequency or duration, but its long and hallowed relationship to democracy and military valor, which modern military officials tend to find improbable or even unbelievable.

Boswell goes on to note that in Plato's Symposium, the character named

Phaedrus argued that no one's behavior is better than that of those [same-sex] couples who are in love, because they would rather behave badly in sight of father or comrade than in view of those they love. He even advanced the idea that:

if we could somehow contrive to have a city or an army composed of lovers and those they loved, they could not be better citizens of their country than by thus refraining from all that is base in a mutual rivalry for honor; and such men as these, when fighting side by side, one might almost consider able to make a little band victorious over all the world. For a man in love would surely choose to have all the rest of the host rather than the one he loves see him forsaking his station, or flinging away his arms; sooner than this, he would prefer to die many deaths: while, as for leaving the one he loves in the lurch, or not succoring him in peril, no man is such a craven that the influence of Love [Eros] cannot inspire him with a courage that makes him equal to the bravest born; and without doubt what Homer calls a "fury inspired" by a god in certain heroes is the effect produced on lovers by Love's peculiar power. Moreover, only such as are in love will consent to die for others.

~ Symposium 179

So Jim, as you can see, in the ancient world, there was an expectation that Men who Loved Men would be, in my phrase, "martial, masculine, and monogamous."

and

"Phallic, Masculine, Heroic."

And they didn't do anal.

Anal was forbidden.

I'll be posting about that over the next month -- I hope.

But the question is -- why don't you know that?

And the answer is -- because the analists don't want you to know it.

For some reason I thought it was always about lust, getting off, and promiscuity.

That's what the analists want you to think.

Because then there's no alternative to the status quo, and men like yourself, who don't like the status quo, can be treated like freaks.

But you're not a freak.

Your thinking is, in point of fact, in tune with the thinking of the Men who were, literally, the Founders of the Western World.

So again -- in our contemporary world, the facts about the True Love of Man for Man have been dropped down the memory hole -- and essentially obliterated.

But I'm going to be talking about, again I hope soon, a recent article by an independent scholar named Andrew Calimach who discusses same-sex love in the ancient world, including the ban on anal.

And one of the things he points out is that the Men of the early "homosexual" or homophile movement -- people like Oscar Wilde and André Gide -- were, in his phrase, "steeped in the classics."

They'd grown up at a time when it was common for educated kids to learn Greek and Latin.

As a consequence, people like Wilde and Gide had a concept of Manly Love which did NOT support anal.

Indeed, says Calimach, one early "homosexual rights" campaigner, John Addington Symonds, called anal "vicious."

Again, that's all been dropped into the memory hole by the contemporary gay establishment and gay activists, who want you to think that males having sex with males is about anal, promiscuity, and effeminacy -- and always has been.

But that's a LIE.

And that's all it is.

A LIE.

The record from the ancient world is crystal clear -- not at all ambiguous.

[Guys: Calimach's article is in print but not yet online; those who have access to a university library can find it here:
The Exquisite Corpse of Ganymede: A Cursory Overview of an Ancient Gender Studies Discourse, by Andrew Calimach. THYMOS: Journal of Boyhood Studies, Vol. 1 No. 2, 117-137.]

And one of the ironies here is that when Gay Liberation was formed in the early 1970s, the generation then coming up -- which included me -- was one of the relatively first NOT to have a classical education.

A "classical education" -- in the sense of education in Greek and Latin and the Greek and Latin classics -- had dominated in the West since at least the Renaissance.

But it had been on the wane since before World War II.

By the time I was in high school, which was the early 1960s, it was just about gone.

In my case, I studied Latin in junior high and high school.

But I wasn't taught Greek -- and so far as I know, it wasn't offered.

The thinking was that Latin would help kids with both English and Romance Languages like French -- which I also studied.

But that Greek was worthless.

Which meant that most of us in Gay Lib didn't know the classics -- or only knew them in translation;

and those translations were often bowdlerized.

For many of my generation, it wasn't until 1978, and the publication of J.K. Dover's Greek Homosexuality, that we began learning the truth about the ancient world:

That it was informed by male-male love throughout, and that that love was devoted to the pursuit of what was called "excellence" and the "yearning for moral beauty."

So: clearly, if you're talking about a "yearning for moral beauty" and the place of Eros "in the moral structure of society" -- you can't be talking about anal.

How can anal penetration have a place in the moral structure of society?

It can't.

You can't talk about moral beauty -- and then talk about fucking it up the ass.

You can't do that.

Because there's nothing beautiful and there's nothing moral about sticking your dick in a hole full of shit; or having a dick stuck up your ass.

Both are inherently degrading.

Which the Greeks well understood.

That's why they so consistently condemn anal.

It's also why their word for evil -- "kakos" -- derives, as I discuss in my reply to Warrior Joe's You people are changing lives, from their word for human waste -- shit -- "kakke."

"Kalos" -- nobility and moral beauty -- is directly opposed to

"Kakos" -- cowardice and evil.

Again: You can't talk about moral beauty -- and then talk about fucking it up the ass.

You can't do that.

Because anal penetration is vicious and evil.

Which Plato -- and Oscar Wilde and André Gide -- all understood.

I guess that's what went wrong, and unfortunately it turned into a promiscuous nightmare. I heard on the radio recently that George Michael was caught once again having sex or trying to have sex in a public bathroom. I don't understand how anyone, especially someone famous, could stoop to that level.

Right.

But I guess this would play into what you said about how originally it was thought to be sexual behavior akin to heterosexuality, until it was actually defined as homosexuality in the 1800's and somehow was thought to be abnormal, and of course by the time the AMA removed it as some kind of disorder, the damage was already done.

Yes!

So Jim -- if sex between men used to be an activity -- rather than a condition -- the categories of sexual orientation which so dominate our lives today -- are false.

That has to be, because we know that in societies which lack a divine prohibition against same-sex sex, virtually all guys have sex with other guys -- usually very openly.

In ancient Greece, not only was there no prohibition against Men Loving Men -- but three of the major gods -- Zeus, Poseidon, and Apollo -- had boyfriends.

The gods themselves engaged in same-sex love affairs -- Eros.

Romantic and sexual love between men.

But not anal.

Where then did the concept of "sexual orientation" come from?

Well, we think it has to do with an historical process we call heterosexualization.

There are a large number of posts which deal with heterosexualization.

One is The Power of the Masculine.

Another is Agoge III: The Longing for Masculinity.

You may want to take a look.

Obviously that was a good thing to removed it from disorders, but unfortunately it seems like the first thing people think of when someone says they're gay is that they're promiscuous and that they have anal sex. They think they are somehow incapable of love and commitment, and they don't realize that the person may not even have anal. And when people see a couple and one is fem and the other masculine, they automatically assume the fem guy is the bottom, the wife, the submissive one.

Right -- that's all true.

Yes, that post about the man who couldn't take the cock spoke volumes. And I've read similar comments in forums where people will tell the top to dump the bottom, have him stretch himself with dildos, or have anal with other guys behind his back.

Right.

What happened to respecting your lover and doing what's comfortable and satisfying for both of you?

What happened is that anal penetration became normative.

If you're not doing anal, there's something wrong with you which has to be fixed.

Or you have to be thrown away and forgotten.

Sadly, people are so selfish they don't give a crap. I guess this is why bottoms are considered golden, and so many of them believe that they have this big ego and brag about how big a cock they can take--like it's a good thing! And the tops will try to make them feel good by saying "the bottom is in control".

Yes, and that's a lie.

A bottom cannot be in control.

It's a lie whose purpose is to conceal the real nature of anal.

Sorry, I don't get any of it.

And that speaks well of you Jim.

Anyway, it's very sad what happened to your lover, and he's looking down on you now--your guardian angel, and proud of what you are doing.

Thank you Jim.

That's very sweet of you.

Take care!

You too Jim.

Your letters are excellent, I'm going to make use of them, and they will help your fellow Men.

Bill

Bill:

Those are Jim's emails and my responses.

And what you can see is that Jim, who's a thoughtful and intelligent person who does not like anal, nevertheless appears to spend a fair amount of time on analist sites.

And those sites, along with "gay male culture" in general, have heavily impacted his view of the world.

So much so that he "wasn't aware that homosexuality was about love early on."

That's remarkable.

And I have to admit, that when I first read it, my jaw dropped.

But it makes sense.

All Jim knows is the world around him.

And in the world around him, anal and promiscuity predominate.

The males on websites like "large penis support group" and "eurobear" push anal and promiscuity incessantly.

And anal is the priority.

In the "large penis support group" responses, there was virtually no sympathy for the hapless bottom who'd been rendered fecally incontinent by his large-penised top.

And the consensus, as I read it, was that if the bottom couldn't be tightened up -- he should be disposed of.

Not much room for love in a world like that.

In addition of course, and as I said, the views of the ancients about all three pillars of analism are all negative.

Those guys did not like promiscuity, they did not like effeminacy, and they detested anal.

Besides which, they had no concept of what we call "homosexuality."

So how are you going to fit Plato or Plutarch into the "LGBT community?"

Can't be done.

Far easier not to mention them at all.

Than to try.

I want to thank Jim again.

His emails are excellent.

Bill Weintraub

October 29, 2008

© All material Copyright 2008 by Bill Weintraub. All rights reserved.

rmoseley

Re: "I wasn't aware that homosexuality was about love early on"

10-30-2008

I enjoyed this post very much. Jim brings up issues that are universal among men everywhere.

Where is the simplicity, beauty and spontaneity of manly love to be found in the gay ghetto? Analism is one of the most dehumanizing cultures to be found. Human beings have been turned into objects like pieces of furniture to be discarded like an old pair of shoes. Yet they protest their rights and are killing themselves at the same time! Enough is enough. This cult of death has to be stopped! This will take time and patience and in the end we will prevail.