My response was that they don't get me into minefields, because I understand that "men who have sex with men" -- MSM -- are MEN.

Let's repeat that:

Men who have Sex with Men are Men.

MSM are Men.

That's why the social scientists call them "MEN" who have sex with men, and not women who have sex with men, or Venusians who have sex with men, or hermaphrodites who have sex with men.

They're MEN who have sex with men.

It's not complicated.

It's never been complicated.

Yes, there are all sorts of people out there who, for all sorts of reasons, have tried to make it complicated, but that doesn't mean it is complicated.

It's not.

Men who have sex with men are MEN.

They have an XY chromosome pair.

They have all the sexually dimorphic markers of masculinity: external genitals, greater muscularity, lower body fat, facial and body hair, and broad shoulders and narrow hips.

And behaviorally they act like men in two key ways:

They're promiscuous.

And they use coercion to obtain sex.

Gay men in pursuit of anal display the same coercive behaviors as straight guys in pursuit of vaginal.

Same behaviors.

Please note that men do not have to be promiscuous, nor do they have to be coercive.

But those are male behaviors.

So: men who have sex with men are men.

It suited some Victorians, for whatever reason, to think of men who had sex with men as a third sex.

And that idea has hung on.

And it's been taken up by certain feminists, who like the idea of people with penises who aren't male.

And it pleases the religious right to think of MSM as some sort of diseased, depraved, other.

But they're not.

The very same "straight" men who go to church and sit quietly holding their wives' hands often have hard-ons for the guy in the next pew.

As may the pastor himself.

You go to one of those megachurches and you've got a lot of straight-boy boners.

Those are men getting hard for other men.

They're not a third sex and they're not women.

They're men.

The minefields are imaginary.

The men -- and the sex -- are real.

Robert Loring

Re: minefields of the mind

1-13-2006

I don't think we should be limited to only discussing disease on this site. There are a whole host of issues for MSM who reject the butt fuck agenda. These issues and concerns are not only physical but also psychological and spiritual. And many of the issues we each face concern masculinity as well. To limit the discussions here to disease simply sweeps all other issue and concerns we face under the carpet and, frankly, I think frot dudes have been swept under the carpet for far too long already.

As for psychological and sociological theories....who the fuck cares? We DON'T care about the pet psychological/sociological theory of the day that tends to change with each passing wind because we LIVE it! "Theory" means "guess" and allegedly it means "educated guess" even though many theories seem to LACK an "educated" at all. We are not living our lives based on theory. We are living our lives based on who we are as MEN and MSM. Our masculinity is NOT a theory. It's a FACT! Our preference for frot is not a theory. It's a FACT! Our pride in being born men is not some theory but is yet ANOTHER FACT! MSM are MEN and that's a FACT! These things are no theories. They are FACTS and we live out our lives in FACT and NOT in some shifting theories. That's one reason we deal with our issues and concerns on this site along with the disease issue.

Personally I think that the suggestion that we limit our discussions to disease issues and ignore talking about masculinity is a CROCK. It's just one more way to stuff frot dudes back under the bed (we've never been in the closet dudes!) so the BFD can continue to slaughter it's countless victims. The BFD does not want MEN to know that they can be MASCULINE MEN or that there IS an alternative to the butt bang lifestyle. They don't want dudes to know that they can love other dudes and STILL be MASCULINE MALES. The BFD pushes an agenda that says in order to love other men you must surrender your masculinity. That's not a theory. That's a BIG FAT LIE!

As for straight boy boners in church? Absolutely! And you'd be surprised how many get hard for other dudes in church. Christianity has tried to portray homosex as wrong and sinful even though it is NATURAL to many MASCULINE MEN. Frot comes naturally to men while butt fucking does NOT. David and Jonathan in the Bible were both warriors. They loved each other and there's little doubt that they frotted together. Yet, God did NOT condemn them and, in fact, David became on of the greatest living testimonies to God during his lifetime. If what he and Jonathan did was so wrong and sinful then I'm sure God would have made Sodom and Gomorrah out of them. BUT God did NOT!

Turning to Jesus, he had PLENTY of opportunity to condemn homosex between men BUT he did NOT. When the Centurion asked Jesus to heal his male lover, Jesus healed him. This presented the perfect opportunity for Jesus to condemn man-to-man heroic love BUT Jesus did NOT. Frot comes NATURALLY to masculine males. I don't think it is wrong or sinful. Besides, don't you think God would do something about all those straight boy boners in church if it were so sinful? LOL You know, maybe something on the scale of the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah or on par with the parting of the Red Sea.

Disease is definitely one of the issues addressed on this site but the other issues are also addressed and discussed. And it's not about theory and minefields but about MASCULINE REALITY. That masculine reality that we each LIVE out in our daily lives being MEN. Issues that center around our REFUSAL to surrender our MASCULINITY. Issues that concern our innate WARRIOR heritage. And issues of FREEDOM and LIBERATION! I don't think most of us came to this site and stayed because of the disease discussion alone. Rather, most of us came here and have stayed because here we find the BROTHERHOOD of MASCULINE manhood. We discovered as we stumbled across this site that we are NOT ALONE! We discovered that the feelings we have and the desire to frot are NATURAL to MEN. And, most importantly, we found a place of BELONGING among EQUALS. We knew we did not fit into straight society completely and we knew we did not fit into the gay BFD culture either. We were MEN without a country (so to speak) until each of us came to this site and found our place of belonging, our "country."

We who have gathered here are MASCULINE MEN.

We who have gathered here are WARRIORS.

And, we who have gathered here are BROTHERS!!

Sir Robert

Greg Milliken

Re: minefields of the mind

1-13-2006

About a century and a half ago a very brave woman stood up and asked, "Arn't I a woman?"

And she said this in regard to a flawed view of women that considered them weak and stupid and frail by nature.

In addition, she was very brave for saying this at a time when neither blacks nor women had true rights, as she was both.

So I say today, Arn't I a gay man?

Does my voice lilt in a noisy whine?

Does that mean people must refer to me as "she" and "miss" and "gurl"?

Does that mean I have to lift my butt in the air and get fucked in the ass?

And arn't I a gay man?

Do we have a use for people who refuse to think of themselves as men? For people who think of themselves as weak and stupid and frail by nature?

Do you know what an idiot savant is?

It's someone who is severely mentally handicapped, but is a genius at only one thing.

Most gay men view themselves as idiots savant.

They are completely mentally dysfunctional, but seem to be experts at knowing what they want.

And they want everyone else to think of themselves as idiots savant.

But arn't I a gay man? I'm not stupid.

I can understand that when you bend over and get fucked, there is no physiological basis for any pleasure you might feel.

I can understand that when you bend over and get fucked, you are exposing your blood and immune system directly to all kinds of nasty and debilitating -- if not fatal -- diseases.

Isn't it contradictory that you can know what you want without knowing about what anyone else wants?

If you haven't the slightest knowledge of how anyone might derive pleasure, how do you know the best method to achieve it yourself?

Indeed, in a world where men try to get HIV as their "preferred method of pleasing themselves" how can I even trust someone else's word that they know what feels good?

Because I very much doubt that anyone gets pleasure from HIV.

I think they get a large helping of pain with a side of wasting and a slice of misery for dessert.

But I don't think they get pleasure.

But they tell us that's what they want.

And who are we to judge them?

I'll tell you who we are.

We are gay men.

And bi and straight men who love other men too.

And we know better than to accept half-baked excuses for dangerous and self-mutilating behavior.

We aren't idiots savant with no concept of anything outside the narrow view of our personal minds.

What a hell it would be to live in a world where I can't understand how to bring pleasure to someone I love.

Where I couldn't understand that he loves me back.

No, I'm not stupid.

I'm not ignorant to what other people think and feel.

And arn't I a gay man?

Do I have to go out and have sex with all kinds of people I don't even know?

Do I have to look disdainfully on faithful relationships and true male bonds?

I am a gay man.

And I refuse "to play nature to your culture," as spoken by a 19th Century advocate for human rights.

There's absolutely nothing about analism that is necessary for me to follow.

And everything about analism is contrary to being a dignified, virtuous man.

It is contrary to the lives and health of my fellow men.

It is contrary to the pleasure and dignity of my fellow men.

It is contrary to the masculinity and virtue of my fellow gay men.

And I refuse to stop fighting it because some idiot mouthpiece for a man-hating modern-day feminist decides to be willfully stupid about the history, nature, meaning, and usage of the word effeminacy.

If you want to believe you're a misogynist because someone else acts weak, stupid, and frail and, because of that, calls himself a "gurl" and refers to himself as "she" and you have a problem with that, go ahead.

But I refuse to let that diseased mental incapacity and absolute lack of thought or understandingclaim me or any gay man I know!

Take it or leave it.

Take it and you'll make your life better.

Leave it and you'll just see it become more prevalent.

It's up to you.

Greg Milliken

Bill Weintraub

Re: minefields of the mind

1-18-2006

Wow!

Great posts from both of you.

And I almost didn't put this post up.

Our masculinity is NOT a theory. It's a FACT! Our preference for frot is not a theory. It's a FACT! Our pride in being born men is not some theory but is yet ANOTHER FACT! MSM are MEN and that's a FACT! These things are no theories. They are FACTS and we live out our lives in FACT and NOT in some shifting theories.

Right -- our masculinity is not a theory.

Over the last couple days I've been creating more pages in Warriors Speak II, and it's interesting how clear our guys are on masculinity, and on the connection between Frot and masculinity.

For example -- and these are all from 2002 -- a guy from Finland, Timo, said

For ancients, homosexual men were men with a big M. They were superior to straight men in their virtues as soldiers and as members of the polis. Where on earth have modern gay men gotten this strange idea that they are somehow more feminine than straight men?? I'd say it's the reverse. If you cherish, appreciate, give positive value to the qualities of another man, you also appropriate, take as your own, these same qualities. So if you add to a set of manly qualities another set of manly qualities, you get more manly qualities. Nothing suggests anything towards feminine.

Right.

So masculine + masculine = more masculine;

and two men united sexually *as men* augment and exalt each other's masculinity.

This is from a guy calling himself Gaymanjax:

But it isn't just the sex....there is a feeling that is very hard to describe of being completed....of doing just what a man is supposed to do. When his penis and mine are together, moving together or just lying next to each other, I have the feeling that this is what men do to get the highest and best feeling and masculinity. There is no pretension or role-playing....just two men being males together, sharing the feelings that only men can feel. I have never felt so much a man as when I do this with another man.

And Eric Lupin says of the sight of his cock pressed into his lover's that it's "Unquestionably male, overwhelmingly masculine."

Greg says:

everything about analism is contrary to being a dignified, virtuous man.

It is contrary to the lives and health of my fellow men.

It is contrary to the pleasure and dignity of my fellow men.

It is contrary to the masculinity and virtue of my fellow gay men.

Masculinity and virtue.

Vir -- Virilis -- Virtus.

Man -- Masculinity -- Virtue.

This is something I wrote in response to yet another Warrior's comments about the potential nobility of man2man:

We've had 30 years of promiscuity, moral relativism, and sleaze in the gay male community, and the result has been half a million dead and a lot more walking wounded.

What we need now is not more of the same, but a new direction which acknowledges the historic truth of heroic man2man love, and offers an essentially noble vision to those men who want to connect with another man without surrendering the masculine attributes which constitute the very sinews of the sacred bonds between men.

For masculinity is not a cultural artifact. Rather is it rooted in the subtle strands of DNA which shape our psyches and our souls.

And that masculinity is inextricably linked through evolution both biological and spiritual to the warrior ethos.

It is that ethos, expressed culturally but borne in our genetic code, which gives men the strength to fight and die for those they love.

Martial Masculine Monogamous

Phallic Masculine Heroic

Rick, stay true to your ideal of the nobility of man2man.

And watch your dreams come true.

"Stay true to your ideal of the nobility of man2man."

That's very important.

The culture says that men, and in particular men who love men, are incapable of nobility.

Not true.

Our masculinity is not a theory.

Neither is our capacity to behave nobly and heroically.