Bill Weintraub

Re: not gay sex but man to man sex

7-4-2003

thank you joe for this very moving account

of course there are a lot of guys like you on the site and in the world, and i hope you're eventually able to connect with one of them

only other thing i want to say about your post, is that though you may be right that your father's rejection of you is the reason you sought out other guys for warmth and love, that's not universally true

many men who have sex with men have loving fathers with whom they're very close

that was so both for my first partner, Brett, who died of AIDS, and for my current love, Patrick -- they both had strong, loving fathers

through the years, there have been many theories advanced to try to explain why men are attracted to other men

those theories are unnecessary

the fact is that homosexual behavior is found among many mammals -- probably all mammals -- and in all human cultures

so homosexual behavior is natural

you don't need theories to explain it

and that's particularly true of frot, which is the most natural and innocent form of man to man sex

men rub cocks because it's a genital-genital connection which is very intense and super-pleasurable

and that connection is usually about, as Joe says, love and warmth as well

to understand more about that, readers may want to look at my photo essay What Sex Is.

and to remember

bill

JPax

6-21-2004

Re: not gay sex but man to man sex

This reply is a year in coming, cause I only recently discovered the site! It is never too late.

I am a married man who loves my mate, though the sex is just about gone now replaced by convenience.

Now I find this site and the denial melts away. I don't need a man to hold me, I want a man to hold. I can't even explain the excitement I am feeling with my new found quest - to be a man WITH a man.

Freedom.

JPax

David

Re: not gay sex but man to man sex

6-25-2004

That is so true. It's not "gay sex", but rather Man2Man sex.

When I think of "gay sex" I think of the pain and filth of anal sex, tops/bottoms, fems/butches, fashion queens, phoniness, promiscuity, shallow lives and the meat market attitude of the "gay bar" culture.

When I think about FROT, I feel the excitement of two men becoming one, the hair the sweat, the sound and smell of two men locked together face to face, cock to cock. I also think about the tenderness and love, the respect and humility both men have and show. It's more then just lust, it's a bonding.

When you cum together as men, face to face, mouth to mouth, cock to cock it has to be Man2Man!

David

Chris

Re: not gay sex but man to man sex

12-10-2004

I've been gay since age 8 (at least that I can recall) and prefer c2c over oral etc.

My main frustration is I can't understand how a man who enjoys frot with another man can claim to be straight? I always thought that straight men did it with women NOT men. I think that people are so hung up on the label that the can't simply state that they enjoy men. just my thought on the subject.

Chris

Bill Weintraub

Re: not gay sex but man to man sex

12-11-2004

Hi Chris

You say, "I can't understand how a man who enjoys frot with another man can claim to be straight?"

The problem with your question, which is the problem with contemporary culture, is that it creates a strict gay-straight dichotomy, into which every human being must fall.

You're either one or the other! it says; so fish or cut bait.

The human reality, which is a lot older than 21st century America, is far more complex.

And as a consequence, these labels -- of which there are just two -- are far too limiting.

That's why I've said from the beginning, and will go on saying,

"This isn't about gays -- it's about guys."

Guys have sex with guys -- they do now, and they have since the beginning of time.

At this moment, this day of Our Lord December 10, 2004, a tiny minority of those guys self-identify as gay; while the majority identify as straight.

If you're in the religious right, you think those words and those divisions really matter.

If you're honest, you know those words are a smoke-screen and a lie.

Guys have sex with guys.

Always have.

Always will.

Now one way, Chris, you can conceptualize it, and it may make it easier for you, is to separate sexual orientation and sex acts.

Gay men can have "heterosex" -- sex with a woman.

Straight men can have "homosex" -- sex with a man.

Doesn't change their basic sexual orientation.

So:

Many gay men have sex with women.

Does that make them straight?

No one says so.

The former governor of NJ described himself publicly as "a gay American," even though he has a wife and two daughters by her.

What he meant was that his sexual orientation was more or less exclusively towards people of his own sex.

In fact, Gov. McGreevy, who's been married twice, has had sex with at least two women -- but he is, in his own estimation, "gay."

And there are a number of men in the Alliance who are married and have had kids by their wives, but who self-identity as gay.

By which they mean that their primary erotic attraction is toward other men.

So: if a gay guy can have sex with a woman and remain gay, how come a straight guy can't have sex with a man and remain straight?

Again, you can if you want, think of it as a question of orientation.

A man who has a strong erotic attraction towards women, but who likes to connect sexually with another man from time to time, is not gay.

What he is, strictly speaking, is bisexual with a "stronger" attraction to women.

But since virtually everyone is to some degree bisexual, it's not a big deal for that guy to say he's "straight."

Because I, at least, understand what he means: he really really really really really really really likes women -- but he also likes guys.

That's not the same in our culture as being gay -- cause in our culture, a gay guy is believed to exclusively like other men.

Indeed, for a straight guy to say he's "gay" cause once in awhile he rubs cocks with another guy -- would make no sense in contemporary America.

But ultimately, Chris, those categories themselves make no sense.

They're far too rigid and far too confining.

And they're very recent.

Prior to 1869, neither the word nor the identity "homosexual" existed.

There were just people.

Who had sex with other people.

So we need to be clear -- these labels are misleading and imprisoning and very harmful.

Look at what Scully said in his post The best game ever!:

I am bi married but really don't like labels. I am a man -- period! A man who enjoys the touch and feel of another human being. It is totally different with a woman than with a man. Although I very much enjoy the intimacy with a woman, I also enjoy the pure pleasure of being naked with another man.

Chris, do you really think Scully is gay?

And that he's lying to himself and to the other guys on this board?

I don't.

He likes both women and men.

And he's freed himself of the constraint of gay-straight labels.

If every time I see an attractive woman I say to myself, "I'm gay, so I couldn't be interested in her," that becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Same thing for a straight guy: If every time he sees an attractive man he says to himself, "I'm straight, so I couldn't be interested in him," that too becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

We're far better off just allowing ourselves to be ourselves, and not worrying about these labels, which in a very real and human sense, are meaningless.

So what concerns me about your post, Chris, and the attitude which underlies it, is that in the name of gay lib, you're condemning literally millions of straight guys to never having sex with another guy.

You're saying: if you do that, you're not really straight -- you're gay.

And that's nonsense.

Like I say,

"This isn't about gays -- it's about guys."

Guys have sex with guys.

They always have and they always will.

Once men understand that -- and it will be a terrific fight getting there because the religious right believes that any form of homosex is a terrible sin -- which of course it is not -- but, once men understand that, the concept of sexual orientation will by and large vanish, and will seem as antiquated to people in the future as concepts of racial purity do to us now.

And once again, men will be free to be men -- to live and love as they please.

Here's how nakedwrestler put it in his wonderful post aggression and the beauty of guys:

I allow myself time for horsing around with nude wrestling like Greeks and Romans used to. It's a fun and perfectly harmless thing for males to do from time to time. It's real male bonding. I highly recommend it as I do all exercise.

Yes you will get a hard on from doing this. If you're a guy it's what your body does. You ARE normal. The aggression tells your body to crank up the testosterone which your body needs to be aggressive in the first place. You need it to fight. Testosterone also gives you an erection. You ARE normal. Wrestling and male aggression keep you young. Enjoy your maleness.

Males are naturally attracted to each other even if they can't admit it to themselves and we've not been allowed to experience that reality in the Western World for almost 2000 years.

Experience it; celebrate it.

Oh yeah.

Experience it; celebrate it.