Bill Weintraub

Re: Finally I can identify

7-10-2009

Hey Vince,

Thank you for writing to me and for your kind words about my work and our sites.

I'm glad they've resonated and been meaningful for you.

Let's take a look:

I came across your site about one week ago,

Vince, I'm very glad you found us.

and I been reading and re-reading everything.

Good!

That's the best thing you can do, and I'm sending you a letter which will help guide any further reading you may want to do.

Thanks for having such a great and informative site.

Vince, you're very welcome.

Again, I'm glad we can be here for you.

Let me say...FINALLY, I can identify with who I really am...a Frot Man! Let me say that again proudly...I am a FROT MAN.

Okay.

Vince, your very strong and positive statement brings up the question of labels and categories.

Labels and categories, which, in our modern age, seem to be everywhere.

So let me say first off, Vince, that I understand where you're coming from --

and I'm glad the concepts we're putting forth are useful for you.

And of course we do have a formal definition of a Frot Man, which I hope you've already seen.

However, when you say this "I am a FROT MAN" --

what we want you to understand very very clearly -- and what is core to you're being part of the Alliance -- is that you understand that you're a MAN.

That's what you are.

And that's how we encourage ALL MEN to identify.

Vince, you're a Man.

Just like other Men.

And you don't need any other identifiers.

It's fine to let other guys know you're into Frot.

Indeed, it's important, for your sake and their sake, that you do.

But what you are -- is a Man.

That you're attracted to other guys -- is normal and natural.

ALL MEN are attracted to Men.

As one of our Warriors says:

Male sexual desire for men cannot be tied down to a minority group. Rather it is a universal male phenomenon, especially strong among masculine men.

Vince, please take that statement to heart.

Most of the ills that you've lived through in your life, and which you discuss in your letter, come about through the basic mis-understanding and denial, put forth by both the "gay" and "straight" branches of our society, of the ubiquity of male sexual desire -- for other men.

You need to get clear -- that you're a Man.

And that your same-sex needs and desires are normal and natural.

Best place to start in your reading about that, probably, is The Power of the Masculine.

Please ck it out.

So -- another way of putting this, is that a Frot Man -- is a Man.

That's who and what he is.

And he's a Man who's what we call --

Naturally Masculine.

And part of his Natural Masculinity is his openly-felt and freely-expressed attraction for other Men.

While another part of his Natural Masculinity is his desire to bond phallically with another Man.

Phallically.

Phallus against Phallus.

Manhood against Manhood.

Man2Man.

That's a sexual expression of the male bond, an expression which is, as Frances says, "natural and organic."

So -- a Frot Man -- is a Man.

And that's what you are, Vince -- a Man.

I used to identify as gay, but that never felt right.

Of course it didn't.

Vince, you're not "gay."

But here's the deal.

NOBODY's "gay."

"gay" and "straight" are cultural constructs -- and that's all they are.

Where do they come from?

They're the result of an historical process we call heterosexualization;

and which produced the concepts first, of "homosexuality," and then of sexual orientation.

Vince, it's very important for your sake that you understand both heterosexualization and "sexual orientation."

Here's a brief intro:

Heterosexualization is an historical process which

1. eliminates same-gender environments and replaces them with mixed-gender environments;

2. creates and then imposes upon men a false definition of masculinity, in which "real men" are constrained to be, both affectionally and sexually, exclusively heterosexual; and

3. medicalizes and ghettoizes same-sex affection, intimacy, sex, and love; while dictating that all same-sex sexual expression be played out within the heterosexual paradigm of male and (pseudo-)female -- thus, the gay male categories of top/bottom, active/passive, dominant/submissive, butch/bitch.

Crucial to this process is the denigration, curtailment, and dismissal both of the male's natural male aggression; and of his natural male attraction.

Under heterosexualization, the male is steadily divorced from contact with other males, and forced into constant contact with females; while the two key attributes of Natural Masculinity, male aggression and male attraction, are forbidden him.

So, and again, Vince, these are core concepts which I hope you'll come to understand.

Because they've had a real and brutal impact upon your life.

And Vince, here's another core concept:

Sex between men is an activity -- not a condition.

Guys who have sex with guys do not have a condition such as "homosexuality" or "being gay."

They're just guys.

Doing something -- an activity -- that guys do.

I say more about that in my reply to Warrior Ryan's A True Masculine Man.

And I'm going to repeat what I said to Ryan -- here.

And guys, when I do that, repeat something that was recently posted, it's not because I don't know that I'm repeating myself.

I know it very well.

And I do it because not every reader clicks on every link; and because the concepts we present are usually not the sort our site visitors will encounter anywhere else.

So it's important that they see them here, and if possible, see them each time they visit our Alliance sites.

Here's what I said to Ryan:

"Homosexuality" is a very recent concept among human beings.

In the past, sex between men was an activity -- something guys did.

Since 1869 -- that's just 140 years -- and to varying degree -- sex between men -- has been considered a condition -- "homosexuality."

That idea is wrong.

In reality, people in the past had it right: sex between men is an activity -- something guys normally and naturally do.

Ryan, the idea of male-male affection, intimacy, sex, and love as a condition -- first called "homosexuality" and then called "sexual orientation" -- is a function of an historical process we call heterosexualization.

And we need to talk about that a bit more.

So, and like I said, the terms "homosexuality" and "homosexual" were coined 140 years ago in an effort -- a successful effort -- to turn what had been an activity -- sex between men -- into a disease -- "homosexuality."

What that meant was that just as, in the 19th century, there were people who were "tubercular," and who suffered from the disease called "tuberculosis"; so now there were to be males who were said to be "homosexual," and who would be said to suffer from the disease called "homosexuality."

That was a tremendous shift in the way human beings thought about sex.

Again, it turned what had been an activity -- sex between guys -- into a condition, a medical condition, an illness, a disease, for which doctors would then seek a cure.

And this shift, which was a "paradigm shift," a significant change in cultural norms, coincided with the historical process we call heterosexualization:

the destruction of same-gender spaces and relationships, and their conversion to almost exclusively mixed-gender spaces and relationships.

And this too was a tremendous shift in the way people lived.

And the practical effect of the combination of heterosexualization and the development of the concept of "homosexuality" was to isolate and ghettoize Men who engaged in any sort of same-sex affection, intimacy, and love.

Now -- as we've discussed before, including in from homosexuality to analism, the American Psychiatric Association removed "homosexuality" from its list of mental disorders in 1973.

Which meant that "homosexuality" was no longer a mental illness.

But the concept -- that there was something fundamentally different about "men who had sex with men" -- persisted.

And the result was the categories of sexual orientation, which I refer to as homosexuality's evil twin.

Because, in their effects, those categories are EVIL, and they're DIRECTLY related to the previous categories of "homosexual" and "homosexuality."

So -- "homosexuality" as a cultural concept was originally a condition -- a sickness -- a diseased way of being;

while "gay" is a sexual orientation and also a condition, the idea of which emerged out of "homosexuality," and, which, like the condition known as "homosexuality," is predicated upon the notion that any affection, intimacy, sex, and/or love between Men is a "deviation" from an alleged "heterosexual" norm.

As I said, the concept of "homosexuality" appears as society is beginning to heterosexualize.

While the concept of "sexual orientation" appears as heterosexualization triumphs -- and forces traditional understandings of Masculinity and Femininity underground.

The two poles of "sexual orientation" -- "gay" and "straight" -- work then to drive the male away from his Natural Masculinity:

to divorce Masculinity not only from same-sex love and affection; but also from Aggression -- Fighting Spirit -- Courage -- Virtue -- which is how Masculinity has traditionally been defined and demarcated.

Under heterosexualization, and the categories of sexual orientation, Masculinity is no longer to be defined by Fighting Spirit -- by Courage and Virtue --

but by a single sexual act:

penile-vaginal penetration.

This radical re-definition of "masculinity" is hideously destructive, and many of our modern ills, both male and female, derive directly from it.

So: historically, Masculinity has not been about "sexual orientation" --

but about Fighting Spirit.

And it needs to be again.

As I think Vince may understand.

Vince:

I was never into anal, and never into the main stream gay activities.

Vince, that speaks well of you.

I always found myself attracted to men, the masculine men, the man's man. It was in a way that I wanted to be in their company, hanging out, doing everything they did.

Yes.

Again, it's normal and natural for Men to want to be around Men.

And it's normal and natural for Men to be attracted to Masculinity.

What is Masculinity?

Well, on one level, it's just the feeling that guys have of being a Man.

But the true hallmark of Masculinity is Fighting Spirit.

Fighting Spirit.

That's what defines the Man.

Fighting Spirit.

Growing up I never spent time with my mother or sister, but always wanting to be with men.

Right --

all that means is that you were a normal, male, child.

A boy.

I used to find every excuse to be in the men's locker room, and for that matter the men's rest room. I just couldn't get enough of men.

I understand.

Of course, we wouldn't encourage you, either as a youth or a man, to hang out in rest rooms.

But what you're expressing is a basic male need to be in what we call Man Space.

Man Space.

Exclusively male spaces and places.

All MEN need that.

All MEN used to have it.

The long-house.

The palaistra

The Fight School.

Yet, in our contemporary world, such spaces are becoming more and more rare.

As we discuss in the post titled from longhouse to hidey-hole.

You might want to ck that one out.

To me it never seemed sexual, yet I wanted the physical contact, to feel the roughness, feel the sweat, and the arms of a man.

Right.

Again, that's normal and natural.

Males want and NEED physical contact with other males.

When they don't or can't have it -- it brutally distorts their lives.

As I grew up, my only expression was the stereo type gay, and that never felt right to me.

Right.

And again, that speaks well of you.

That stereotype, of course, is an analist stereotype.

And the analist ghetto is where Men like yourself are shunted by our heterosexualized society.

But it's NOT where you should be.

Vince, you should not be in that ghetto.

It's a trash-heap.

You're a Man.

You deserve better than that.

I saw myself as a masculine man.

Because that's what you are.

A Masculine Man.

I was able to have some good relationship, but they always left me wanting more.

Okay.

Were those analist relationships?

I took up weights and wrestling just so I could have that contact, and be with me.

Right --

Vince, you say, "and be with me"

You mean to say, "and be with men."

But Men are both other Men -- and yourself.

Because you too are a Man.

So that typo actually expresses an inner and powerful truth -- for all Men.

Then I found, what I now know was my frot man, we were both into the same thing. It was great, then one time I made my move on him, I couldn't help it, we were wrestling and I was rock hard, just from being with him.

Of course.

He then backed away from me, and we don't speak any more.

That's a pity.

I struggled with myself thinking I was wrong,

No, you were NOT wrong.

and not knowing who I was. I wasn't gay, and I wasn't straight, I just was.

Vince, that's CORRECT.

You're not "gay" and you're not "straight";

You just are.

You're a MAN.

What you need to try to understand is that all those guys out there who claim to be "gay" or "straight" -- are in reality, simply "gay-identified" or "straight-identified."

They too are Men.

But they don't know it.

I wanted to be a man with a man.

And that's what all Men want.

Not "gay" and not "straight" -- but just a Man with a Man.

Finally, years later, I stumbled onto this site, and I feel like a new soul, born from within.

Great!

Others who understand how I feel, and that the passion, and the strength of a man's arms is wonderful, and the passion of his kisses, and the grinding and two naked bodies is a great thing.

Yes -- that's right, it is a great thing.

And you're now among brothers -- other guys who understand what a great thing it is.

I have been looking at the photo's on this site, and find them more erotic than any others I have seen. I guess it is because of the values, and the beliefs of being a Frot Man.

Yes!

That's right.

The values and beliefs of the Alliance are what give those images their power.

I could just go on, and on about how I feel, and the re-newed life that I feel. Now, I need to share my feelings, and find another Frot Soul, and experience all there is.

Right.

So, I am a Frot Man, and proud to be one.

Vince -- like I say, that's fine.

But ultimately -- you're a MAN.

Try to stay clear about that.

That Frot Man identity is fine, so long as you remember that above all, you're a Man.

Without question, it's true that you need to find another Man like yourself.

But he could be anywhere -- because he could be any Man --

who feels as you do.

I'd love to hear from you and others about, and share and talk more about this.

Thanks again for a great site....

Vince, again, you're very welcome, and I'm glad you found us.

And welcome to the Alliance.

keep up the great work!

Vince, with your help, we will.

Bill Weintraub

Guys:

This was a difficult post to respond to, because while I didn't and don't want to destroy Vince's identity as a Frot Man, I want to be sure that he hears and understands our basic and core message:

that he's a MAN.

Now, that he first thinks in terms of identifying as a Frot Man is not surprising.

Because as I said at the beginning of my reply to Vince, this question of categories has become ubiquitous.

For example, just a few weeks ago I received this email:

Someone just sent me the link to your site a couple of days ago, and I found out that I was not the only one that felt a certain way. I grew up in a small town and believed I was the only guy that was attracted to other guys. Then as I got to college, I realized I wasn't. But then I felt isolated in the gay community because I wasn't a top or bottom. I had no interest at all in that kind of sex. I really wasn't interested in oral sex either. I always fantasized about kissing, naked body contact, mutual jackoff, frotting (which I didn't even know the technical term for that until about a month ago). Now, I don't feel like I am the only one that likes that and not anal sex.

I just wanted to say thank you. It is an awful feeling when you believe you don't fit into any category. ...

Mark

In writing back to Mark, I thanked him for his letter, of course, and then said,

Mark, regarding this, "It is an awful feeling when you believe you don't fit into any category." --

Yes -- but really, you don't need to be in a category Mark.

As we stress on the site, you're a Man.

That's who and what you are, Mark.

A Man.

You don't need any other identifier.

And I referred Mark, as I have Vince, to the definitions of heterosexualization;

and of sexual orientation;

and of course of natural masculinity.

Because you can see how destructive categories like "top" and "bottom" and "gay" and "straight" have been in the lives of Men like Vince and Mark.

And they're guys who have identified, more or less, as "gay."

I get letters all the time from guys who have identified throughout their lives as "straight" --

and the destruction has been just as brutal.

As a matter of fact, I'm posting one of those letters today, on the same day that I post Vince's, and that letter is titled a sick society that forces men to repress their natural, wholesome feelings of love for each other.

And you can see just from the title of his post where the person posting is coming from.

And the poster, who I'm calling Dan, is correct:

We live in a "a sick society that forces men to repress their natural, wholesome feelings of love for each other";

and which forces men who wish to express those feelings into the perverted, deadly, and soul-destroying top-bottom butch-bitch roles and categories of analism.

Not good.

Nor has it ever been thus.

Fact is, the idea that people have to be forced into these categories is light years distant from the historic way of thinking about Men -- and Women.

Historically, Men have been defined by their Willingness to Fight --

Fighting Spirit.

And Fighting Spirit has been explicitly linked to Virtue -- to Morality.

So, as I keep explaining and emphasizing, there's a link between Virtue and Virility -- and between, for the Greeks, Ares, the Warrior God, and Areté -- excellence and Virtue:

As is made clear in the standard ancient-Greek lexicon:

From the same root [ARES] comes areté [excellence and virtue] ...the first notion of goodness being that of manhood, bravery in war; cf. Lat. virtus.

And Ares in turn is paired with Agon -- the personification and God of athletic struggle and strife.

This is very important.

Because when the link between Virtue and Virility is lost -- Men suffer.

They suffer because "manliness" -- Masculinity -- no longer has a purpose or function in society.

Nor is it linked, any longer, to the Divine.

Rather, it's seen as a liability.

That's a mistake.

And that's why we emphasize Masculinity in the Alliance.

Why we speak of Masculinity as a Divine Principle;

and Manhood as a Divine Gift;

and Frot as a Holy Sacrament.

All essential.

Vince says

I wasn't gay, and I wasn't straight, I just was. I wanted to be a man with a man.

Finally, years later, I stumbled onto this site, and I feel like a new soul, born from within. Others who understand how I feel, and that the passion, and the strength of a man's arms is wonderful, and the passion of his kisses, and the grinding and two naked bodies is a great thing.

Mark says

I felt isolated in the gay community because I wasn't a top or bottom. I had no interest at all in that kind of sex. I really wasn't interested in oral sex either. I always fantasized about kissing, naked body contact, mutual jackoff, frotting...

What you see here are two MEN struggling against the labels and categories which society so ruthless imposes upon them.

That they STRUGGLE is good -- it shows that they've managed to retain, despite the years of heterosexist and analist oppression, their MASCULINITY.

Their FIGHTING SPIRIT.

STRUGGLE

STRIFE

FIGHT

All necessary to the MAN.

You can hear it also in Dan, the straight-identified guy, who says that

I also had that need for male bonding ...

I have always felt incomplete somehow. Like something has been denied me. It comes into my consciousness when, on occasion, I notice a particularly handsome man. ...

My fear of intimacy with men is so strong that I am barely able to shake hands with a guy out of fear that he would somehow be able to detect my attraction to him. ...

"My fear of intimacy with men is so strong that I am barely able to shake hands with a guy.."

And isn't that great?

But hey, let's hear it for all those labels and categories so beloved of our analist and heterosexist masters.

Let's hear it for gay and straight and top and bottom and dom and sub and butch and bitch.

Do you remember how Esau sold -- soul-ed -- his birthright for a bowl of porridge?

You don't even get the porridge.

You've sold your Masculinity -- and your Courage and your Virtue and your Fighting Spirit --

for a label.

You're a "gay."

You're a "straight."

You're a "top."

You're a "bottom."

You're no longer a Man --

but at least you fit into a category.

That's the important thing.

Gotta get you in that pigeon-hole, gotta keep you in that box.

That way, at least you -- and society -- know what you are.

And if you're "gay" -- you're into anal, promiscuity, and effeminacy.

And if you're "straight" -- you never look at another guy.

All you think about is breasts -- boobs, knockers, hooters, lungs.

That's it.

That's the extent of your world.

And that, guys, is what you've traded for your Masculinity and your Fighting Spirit --

the opportunity to be either a bitch -- or a buffoon.

Mark and Vince, I think, understand; and I think Dan does too.

But: if you understand how much has been stolen from you, you've got to ACT on it.

You can't sit passively by while more and more and more and more and more is taken from you.

Until there's nothing of you -- left.

No.

You have to Fight Back!

And that means DONATING -- not once, but regularly -- and otherwise supporting this MAN2MAN Alliance.

If you don't do that -- and someone comes along and tells you to "Get on your knees bitch and have some fun" --

and someone else tells you that "real" men don't love other men --

then you have no one to blame but yourself.

If you act -- if you DONATE -- if you spread the word -- if you agree to and follow through on starting up a Regional Chapter --

then you will have TAKEN ACTION.

Which is what a MAN does.

Try to understand:

Mark and Vince and Dan -- and yes, YOU -- have all benefitted from our sites and from our work because OTHER MEN HAVE TAKEN ACTION.

Now it's your turn.

To act --

or to cower --

forever.

FIGHT BACK.

SAVE YOUR LIFE.

Bill Weintraub

July 10, 2009

© All material Copyright 2009 by Bill Weintraub. All rights reserved.

Brian Hulme

Re: Finally I can Identify

7-18-09

Hi Bill,

Like Vince, only when I came across the Man2Man Alliance web site and with your guidance and help for which I am SO grateful was I able to become the real MAN (Masculine And Normal) that I am now.

Thank you and keep up the good work and I will keep on donating.

With Warrior Love,

Brian