David

Re: I have everything I could ever want!

5-20-2006

Let me tell you a little more about me and my partner. I'm in my forties and he's 60. We are homebodies...not into the bars at all. Give us TV LAND and Folgers any day!

In the mid-1990's I was the Director of Client Services for an AIDS Service Organization. I supervised case management, and the Executive Director focused on outreach campaigns and fund raising. We had lots of "safer sex" campaigns, all centered mostly around passing out condoms and reminding folk to use water based lube. There was token discussion of "safer sex" practices, but it was most certainly assumed that the focus of any encounter would be anal sex. I remember very little promotion of fidelity. Many of our clients had alcohol/drug problems, and EVERY fundraising event had a bar. Makes a lot of sense, huh? There were echos of Nancy's "Just Say No" campaigns .... and I always wondered, "Just Say No ... Then What?" Saying no for me at this point was easy ... but where was the better alternative that deep inside I knew had to be there? Nobody was talking much about that.

Very few of my friends and acquaintence from that time, and before, are still here and still healthy. Over the past couple of years this has really hit me, and I have truly been grieving. Same with my partner. We have lost so many friends to HIV. There but by the grace of God go I ... because if I had given in and put myself at risk ... which I must admit I did on a couple of occasions right after I came out... I was VERY LUCKY. Anal sex is a game of Russian roulette ... and GEEZ I don't even like it! NEVER AGAIN!

I have read and heard so many times about how WONDERFUL anal sex is .... about the unbelivable pleasure one gets from having their prostate massaged, having your man inside you. For me, though, I cannot eroticize an activity that has taken so many friends away from me.

Let me tell you about WONDERFUL. A couple of days after finding your site Larry and I were enjoying some afternoon fun time. We have been together for 16 years, and we STILL have fun time every day! We were both on our backs, my legs over his, our balls and cocks together. I was stroking both of us. We had the radio on, and the Staple Singers were singing "No worries 'bout nothin, just gettin good, just gettin good love". We were both getting close; I looked at Larry and his eyes were closed and he was quivering with pure pleasure. Nothing was on his mind but "gettin good love". Nothing was on my mind but how good this felt, and about how lucky I am to have this man, and how much I love him. NO WORRIES 'BOUT NOTHIN! Pure, simple, joyful, spiritual, MASCULINE. I feel so much like a MAN when we are together. As i said in my first email, I AM NOT MISSING OUT ON ANYTHING! Darned if I still ain't in bear afterglow!

Bill Weintraub

Re: I have everything I could ever want!

5-20-2006

Thank you David.

And you're right -- You're not missing out on anything, you guys have everything two men could ever want.

What's troubling about David's post is that, even as good as his life with Larry has been and is, the influence of the BFD is so pervasive that David had come to doubt the quality of his life and had gotten into that typically analist mindset of thinking something was "missing" from his life -- when in reality, he has, in his words, a "pure, simple, joyful, spiritual, MASCULINE" relationship with his lover which is incredibly affirming:

"I feel so much like a MAN when we are together."

And, David says, he and Larry don't go out on the gay scene or anything like that.

When I read that, I think of how difficult life must be for those of you who are gay-identified, single, and still active in that culture.

It must be pure hell.

That's why I've suggested Regional Chapters.

But you won't do them.

And some of you are going to literally die as a result.

You'll do anal and you'll get HIV or HPV or LGV or hep C or H-X-V -- and you'll die.

You need to become a lot more active in defending your life -- if you want to defend your life.

Read minefields of the mind -- in which one of our guys said we shouldn't talk about masculinity because gender theory and the like "can really get you into minefields."

My response was that they don't get me into minefields, because I understand that "men who have sex with men" -- MSM -- are MEN.

That guy lives in SF -- buttfuck central.

He used to write me a lot.

And what would go on with him is that he'd be very clear about Frot v anal -- and then his buttboy budz would start haranguing him, and of course he was constantly getting rejected, and he'd come up with silliness like "let's not talk about masculinity."

I have a better idea:

Let's talk about MASCULINITY -- a LOT.

Because if it bothers the buttboyz -- it's worth talking about.

That's also, by the way, why I talk about shit.

Because it bothers the -- shitfairies.

They know that a MAN shouldn't get fucked up the butt and they know that sex shouldn't be about shit.

And talking about those issues breaks through their denial.

Now, David speaks of working at an AIDS Service Organization in the 1990s in which there were "lots of "safer sex" campaigns, all centered mostly around passing out condoms and reminding folk to use water based lube."

but where was the better alternative that deep inside I knew had to be there? Nobody was talking much about that.

And they're still not.

As a result, HIV prevalence among gay men is at 25%.

Far higher than in sub-Saharan Africa, where HIV prevalence over-all is only 7.4%

25% is a shocking figure.

Prevalence of anal HPV is at 67%.

And of course, we've lost hundreds of thousands of gay and bi men in America alone.

Very few of my friends and acquaintence from that time, and before, are still here and still healthy.

I have one friend from the period 1975-95 who's still alive and healthy.

That's it.

More than 200 of my friends and acquaintances died.

That's a common experience for guys of my generation.

Nevertheless, the analist band plays on, spewing out lies:

I have read and heard so many times about how WONDERFUL anal sex is....about the unbelivable pleasure one gets from having their prostate massaged, having your man inside you. For me, though, I cannot eroticize an activity that has taken so many friends away from me.

Let's talk about these lies.

1. "pleasure" from "prostate massage"

That's a lie.

As I've recounted before, I had a gay doctor "massage" my prostate during "sex."

Like I say, he was a doctor -- he knew exactly and precisely where the prostate was and how to "massage" it.

It was not a sexual experience.

It felt no different from what any other doctor does.

Sex is about genitals.

Not anuses and not prostates.

Talk about the prostate is just another dopey analist myth designed to get a finger or a dick someplace that neither should ever be.

This is what one of our guys said in a post titled smells like shit, looks like shit, is shit:

And, I keep on hearing about this prostate gland / Male G spot. Nonsense. The prostate gland is not a sexual organ, it's a gland smaller than a ping pong ball. I don't know about you but my G-spot is my dick, simple as that. The way it feels when people rub it the right way, I don't think I would need any other G-spot in my body. Not only that, the prostate is located a couple inches in and down toward your dick. And 2 inches, not 6, 7, or 12 inches for all you size queens. Because of its position, it's easier to reach it with your finger than with a dick. Sex with penetration "CAN" be applied to men you say, but "SHOULD" it be? Maybe it shouldn't.

"Nonsense. The prostate gland is not a sexual organ."

That's correct.

2. "pleasure" from "having your man inside you."

Again, that's not true.

It's a LIE.

As we document in an anus is not a vagina, the anus and rectum have almost no ability to feel anything.

There is NO pleasure in anal.

What the penetrated partner is actually feeling is the distension of his anal sphincter, and the pounding sensation of his partner ramming into his butt.

That's not the same as genital sex.

Nor is it any way pleasurable.

I know what receptive anal feels like because I've bottomed.

It's not pleasurable in a genital sense nor in any other.

And in terms of "inside you" -- where is he inside you?

He's in your shithole.

The last time a guy penetrated me, when he pulled out, his dick was covered with my shit.

That is not a sexually intimate experience.

It's repellant.

The pain, the shit, the stink, the disease, the mechanical damage to the anus and rectum, the degradation --

To any person of good sense, anal penetration is a repellant act.

So:

These are two HUGE WHOPPING LIES, which have KILLED HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of gay men in America and left HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS more PERMANENTLY ILL.

HIV infection is now termed a "manageable ILLNESS"; and that's if you're lucky and the drugs work and you don't run into a mutant strain of virus.

Even with the drugs, this is still a terrible ILLNESS.

David:

For me, though, I cannot eroticize an activity that has taken so many friends away from me.

Yes.

What's awful is that the gay establishment has romanticized this very dangerous and non-genital act solely because it mimics heterosex.

That has NOTHING to do with Gay Liberation.

Rather, it maintains gay oppression.

The only honest position is to oppose anal penetration.

David:

Let me tell you about WONDERFUL. A couple of days after finding your site Larry and I were enjoying some afternoon fun time. We have been together for 16 years, and we STILL have fun time every day! We were both on our backs, my legs over his, our balls and cocks together. I was stroking both of us. ... Nothing was on my mind but how good this felt, and about how lucky I am to have this man, and how much I love him. NO WORRIES 'BOUT NOTHIN! Pure, simple, joyful, spiritual, MASCULINE. I feel so much like a MAN when we are together.

And that is wonderful.

Thank you David.

© All material Copyright 2006 by Bill Weintraub. All rights reserved.

Robert Loring

Re: I have everything I could ever want!

5-20-2006

YES let's TALK about MASCULINITY a lot!! I could not agree more with you Bill. It MUST be talked about and boys in men's bodies MUST learn how to become MASCULINE men. If we the WARRIORS don't teach them how to become masculine men then certainly the BFD or feminists will NOT.

Reading the post above from David was shocking. The clients had alcohol/drug problems yet there was a bar at every AIDS event? What the HELL were the organizers thinking?? AIDS is a problem and SO IS substance abuse! So one disease is denounced (AIDS) while another (addiction) is honored and encouraged? Sorry but that makes NO sense at all.

Sir Robert

Bill Weintraub

Re: I have everything I could ever want!

5-21-2006

Yes Robert -- we will continue to TALK about MASCULINITY -- a lot!!

In his reply to the Tiny and Stable? message thread, Robert said,

I think it important that we realize that before anything else WE ARE MEN. Everything else including labels are SECONDARY to the FACT that we are MEN! And not only are we men but we are MASCULINE MEN.

That's a truly essential statement and one I want to revisit time and again.

Let's break it down:

"WE ARE MEN."

That's correct.

MEN ARE MEN.

Including MEN WHO HAVE SEX WITH MEN.

MEN WHO HAVE SEX WITH MEN ARE MEN.

Guys, I'm 58 years old.

I haven't been wildly promiscuous, but I've had a lot of sex with a lot of guys.

You know what?

Every one of the men I had sex with -- was a MAN!

Even the effeminate guys -- were MEN!

With their clothes off and in bed they were like any other man.

They didn't have breasts, they didn't have vaginas, they didn't have broad hips or narrow shoulders.

They had wide shoulders, narrow hips, they were muscular, and they had dicks which got ROCK HARD.

And which they thrust against mine.

PHALLUS THRUSTING AGAINST PHALLUS.

PHALLIC THRUSTING leading to PHALLIC UNION.

PURE MALE.

And they had BALLS too.

Their balls were full of jizz.

And after enough rubbing and grinding and bucking and thrusting -- they came.

They ejaculated.

They released SEMEN.

SPERM.

Big hot loads of creamy white cum full of furiously thrashing spermatazoa.

Just like every other man's.

You'd think, after however many decades of having sex with men, that if men who have sex with men aren't really men, I'd have encountered a man who wasn't a man!

Who had breasts.

Or a vagina.

Or a uterus and ova.

Or no dick.

Or who lay passively and unmoving in bed.

Or who didn't have sperm in his balls.

Or who didn't have balls at all.

Never happened.

MEN ARE MEN.

"Everything else including labels are SECONDARY to the FACT that we are MEN!"

That's absolutely correct.

The societal labels are meaningless.

In this context, what matters is being a MAN.

"And not only are we men but we are MASCULINE MEN."

Right:

MASCULINE MEN

And that's the difference between us and our feminized brothers.

But, as I'm going to be talking about in a future post, those feminized males still have the capacity to be MEN.

They can be de-feminized.

They can be saved.

Now, I've said repeatedly that MEN WHO HAVE SEX WITH MEN ARE MEN.

And that's true.

But Robert, in his writing, seems to make a distinction between "feminized males" and MEN.

And I like that.

I think it's very useful.

Anatomically and genetically, feminized males are still men.

But they're no longer behaving like MEN.

So -- and thank you Robert -- we can usefully differentiate between feminized males -- and MEN.

Problem is, as Robert points out, that as time goes on, there are more and more of the former -- and fewer and fewer of the latter.

That's a big problem.

Our job is to help all those feminized males become MEN -- again.

Because MEN is what they TRULY are.

Their MASCULINITY is there -- still within them -- just waiting to be reclaimed.

Robert:

Lurking in the shadows of this site are many males who have been feminized already. They are afraid to come forth and ask that we show and teach them how to be MASCULINE men AGAIN. Don't be afraid! Come forth!! YOU are among BROTHERS not enemies! Support each other as Warrior Brothers and SUPPORT this SITE!

How can these males be saved?

Through the Way of the Warrior -- the Warrior Ethos.

Robert again:

The point of this post is not to identify who the destroyers are but to motivate males who still have a mustard seed of masculinity in them to STAND UP UNAFRAID and begin to FIGHT BACK! The point of this post is to get you thinking about the WARRIOR ETHOS and motivate you into not just believing in it but to motivate you to begin LIVING the Warrior Ethos in your own life! The road of the Warrior is a road of SALVATION today for MALES! The road of feminization is a road of DESTRUCTION and DEATH for males!

Right.

"The road of feminization is a road of DESTRUCTION and DEATH for males! "

But, for those "males who still have a mustard seed of masculinity in them ... the road of the Warrior is a road of SALVATION"

The Way of the WARRIOR is the Way of SALVATION.

And we're going to be talking about that more and more.

When we were in that debate on gay dot com, one of our most persistent critics on the effeminacy issue was an analist who said in his profile that he was promiscuous but not interested in effeminate men.

What nauseating hypocrisy.

When I was young and single, I'd sleep with an effeminate man.

But I WOULD NOT SUPPORT HIS EFFEMINACY.

Because it was a self-oppressive behavior.

I was very upfront about it.

I'll sleep with you.

But I want you to drop the effeminate bullshit.

Our analist critic says he "supports" effeminacy; but he won't give his body to an effeminate man.

Again, he's a HYPOCRITE.

WE REJECT EFFEMINACY.

We support MASCULINITY, and we encourage ALL males to be MASCULINE MEN.

Including those males who've been feminized, vaginized, and effeminized.

So let's come back to Robert's statement:

I think it important that we realize that before anything else WE ARE MEN. Everything else including labels are SECONDARY to the FACT that we are MEN! And not only are we men but we are MASCULINE MEN.

"We are MEN!"

"And not only are we men but we are MASCULINE MEN."

That's correct.

That's one of our defining characteristics as Frot Men.

So we differ from the analists in two key ways:

We are MASCULINE and PROUD OF IT.

And we encourage ALL MEN TO BE MASCULINE.

We reject feminization.

We do not regard feminization or effeminacy as a valid choice.

We do not honor diversity.

We make a judgment:

Since Masculinity is that which is NATURAL to a man --

Men should be Masculine.

Here's what David said in this message thread:

Pure, simple, joyful, spiritual, MASCULINE. I feel so much like a MAN when we are together.

Right.

Now, let me just say a few things more about our work here.

It was clear very early on that Masculinity was core to the identity of men into Frot, and that's the reason I created Heroic Homosex.

Because I could see that this was about more than rubbing cocks -- it was about Masculinity, it was about Fidelity, it was about an Heroic Warrior Ethos that had been the norm among men for millenia.

And that if MEN are to survive, will have to be the norm again.

And then as more and more straight-identified / bi guys came onto the sites, I realized we had to have a structure which would welcome them and make them feel at home.

Thus the Alliance.

The MAN2MAN Alliance.

MAN is the first word.

In one of his first posts, Don Frazer said, "Let's continue to define ourselves as MEN so everyone will know where we stand."

And now everyone does know were we stand.

We're the MAN2MAN Alliance -- we're about MEN relating emotionally, physically, and spiritually to MEN as MEN.

Moreover, we're an Alliance of MEN who are committed to MAN2MAN in all senses -- including the sexual and the aggressive.

I know that many of our gay-identified guys -- and some of the straight-identified guys too -- do not yet understand the aggressive element.

But they will.

Because regardless of how they self-identify -- MEN are by nature WARRIORS.

So in a sense you can see the names of our groups as expressing the three core elements of our program:

Cockrub Warriors = Frot

Heroic Homosex = Fidelity

Man2Man Alliance = Masculinity

And each contains the other's elements:

Cockrub WARRIORS; Heroic HOMOSEX; MAN2MAN Alliance

Heroic Homosex is Warrior Homosex.

Our Man2Man Alliance is a WARRIOR Alliance.

Frot Men are Masculine Men -- WARRIORS -- into Fidelity and Frot.

Don Frazer, who's been with us from the beginning, has frequently discussed the importance of masculinity in his posts.

As have literally THOUSANDS of other guys.

We're at post number 3693 on this board.

THOUSANDS OF GUYS.

Here's Don in a reply to CocktoCock Love:

Re: CocktoCock Love

7-26-2002

A really evocative and erotic personal story.

"It was so natural and easy," the author writes.

Of course it is---that's the whole point of this board. Direct genital mating between males IS possible and a very likely "instinctive" coupling without any preconceived roles or coaching needed. That's why it's easy.

"His balls resting on mine...." was written. Yup. Balls are important too and an often overlooked aspect of the sexual communion. They're delicately sensitive to touch, so testicle contact not only provides mutual stimulation but does so in a way that confirms the essential MALENESS being shared by partners.

And that is what makes this board so different from other ostensibly "gay" sites.

Here we champion MASCULINE sexuality in defiance of those who would feminize guys by receptive analism and take away that natural union between equals that we know is possible...and beautiful.

The author writes that afterward, "We laughed in relief and celebration."

YES. The joyful celebration following from natural, shared male union---THAT'S what we are proudly proclaiming here.

We don't need enemas, condoms, dildos or femininizing roles, because we are GUYS being GUYS together. It IS natural and easy.

It's a message for now and for the future.

Don F

Look at what he says:

"Direct genital mating between males"

"the essential MALENESS being shared by partners"

"Here we champion MASCULINE sexuality in defiance of those who would feminize guys by receptive analism and take away that natural union between equals that we know is possible...and beautiful."

"shared male union"

"We don't need enemas, condoms, dildos or feminizing roles, because we are GUYS being GUYS together. It IS natural and easy."

So clearly we have stood from the beginning against feminization and for MASCULINITY.

What about MASCULINITY and AGGRESSION?

This is what I said on the Heroes home page:

In this part of our Heroic Homosex site we'll explore the rich history and myths of warrior cultures, and talk about what it means to be a cockrubbin dick2dick warrior in the 21st century.

We'll begin to understand the connection between sex and aggression, and to appreciate the significance of the cosmic joust, the sacredness of phallus, and the awesome power of phallic mating.

We'll learn about nudity in athletics and nudity in war, and look closely at cultures that unabashedly celebrated the male body and the masculine bond.

And we'll see too that among those warriors frot, cockrub, and dick2dick were the norm, the standard, the custom, rule, and model of what m2m sex should be.

Fightin and Frot - Blood Sweat and Cum - were joined with the warrior virtues of courage, compassion, and loyalty to create male2male bonds of ferocious intensity.

Battle-forged bonds that inspired men to fiercely love and willingly die for each other.

And these myths and true stories of men united in love and war will, like the real-life accounts from our warrior brothers in Warriors Speak, empower and ennoble us, make us strong, confident, and proud, invincibly proud, to be COCKRUB WARRIORS.

And FROT MEN.

And MEN of the MAN2MAN ALLIANCE.

Robert:

I think it important that we realize that before anything else WE ARE MEN. Everything else including labels are SECONDARY to the FACT that we are MEN! And not only are we men but we are MASCULINE MEN.

David:

Pure, simple, joyful, spiritual, MASCULINE. I feel so much like a MAN when we are together.

Thank you guys.

© All material Copyright 2006 by Bill Weintraub. All rights reserved.

David

Re: I have everything I could ever want!

5-23-2006

Hello Men,

I am so thankful I found this site. I have found TRUTH. THANK GOD I will never be the same again!

I "found" a song a couple of years ago that I quickly fell in love with. Some of you probably heard it back in the 60's or early 70's, but it was one I had not heard before. The lyrics are profound, and have spoken to me in many ways. But now, with learning the TRUTH that is changing my life, the lyrics resonate with me like never before.

QUESTIONS by the Moody Blues

Why do we never get an answer
When we're knocking at the door
With a thousand million questions
About hate and death and war?
'Cos when we stop and look around us
There is nothing that we need
In a world of persecution
That is burining in it's greed.

Why do we never get an answer
When we're knocking at the door?
Cause the truth is hard to swallow.
That's what the war of love is for.

It's not the way that you say it
When you do those things to me.
It's more the way that you mean it
When you tell me what will be.
And if you stop and think about it,
You won't believe it's true
That all the love you've been giving
Has all been meant for you.

I'm looking for someone to change my life.
I'm looking for a miracle in my life!
And if you could see what it's done to me
To lose the love I knew
Could safely lead me through.

Between the silence of the mountains
And the crashing of the sea
There lies a land I once lived in
And she's waiting there for me.
But in the gray of the morning
My mind becomes confused,
Between the dead, and the sleeping,
And the road that I must choose.

I'm looking for someone to change my life.
I'm looking for a miracle in my life!
And if you could see what it's done to me
To lose the love I knew
Could safely lead me to
The land that I once knew,
To learn, as we grow old,
The secrets of our soul.

It's not the way that you say it
When you do those things to me.
It's more the way you really mean it
When you tell me what will be.

***