Harold

Re: Something Extraordinary

12-19-2006

I have a feeling the two men you described were just alumni who were caught up in the moment with the stirring music and the fellowship of former band members assembled together on a special occasion.

I had a similar experience recently. I was at a classical guitar concert and happened to run into a friend with whom I had sung in a community chorus. While we were talking a friend of my friend's stopped by to say hello to him. My friend introduced us and we shook hands. Neither of us seemed to want to break the handshake and we held on to each other for a good five seconds while chatting. Our conversation wrapped up as the second half of the program was about to start. The most unusual thing happened. As my friend's friend and I parted company, instead of exchanging another handshake, we leaned over and gave each other a kiss on the lips. We were both wearing wedding rings so I am assuming, like me, he is heterosexual.

I thought about this quite a bit since it happened and I feel annoyed about the double standards in our society. If two women did what we two men did, no one would think twice about it. I am sure there were some in the concert hall who were annoyed at our show of affection, but I am glad it happened.

Bill Weintraub

Re: Something Extraordinary

12-19-2006

Hi Harold,

You wrote: "We were both wearing wedding rings so I am assuming, like me, he is heterosexual."

Then you said, "I thought about this quite a bit since it happened and I feel annoyed about the double standards in our society."

But when you refer to yourself as "heterosexual" you're helping to perpetuate those standards.

We've talked for years on this site and in the Alliance about how these "homosexual" "heterosexual" labels are not simply meaningless but deeply misleading.

Which is what they're meant to be.

They're meant to mislead.

They're meant to confuse.

They're meant to divide Men from each other by putting Men who dare show each other affection -- the sort of affection which was common in the 19th century -- into a "homosexual" box.

And putting all other men into a "heterosexual" box.

But they're both boxes.

And very confining.

That what's a box is -- a confinement.

A prison.

So: I've said from the beginning that this is about culture and cultural tyrannies.

Cultures are, on the whole, made up of ideas -- which consist of words.

The ideas have to change.

The words have to change.

Behavior will follow.

Robert Loring often says: Change the thinking, change the behavior.

Are you truly "heterosexual?"

Redd has talked about this more than once: we're all homo sapiens so we're all homo sexual.

Redd's formulation is, in the context of our society, radical and revolutionary.

Because if we're all homo sexual, the category "homosexual" no longer has any meaning and we can discard it.

Which is what we need to do.

You were glad to have exchanged the kiss, but you were concerned about what the other people in the hall might think.

And not unreasonably.

Since it's safe to assume those people are using the same labels you are.

The labels are the problem.

It is normal and natural for Men to seek the company of other Men and to show each other affection.

And it is normal and natural for Men to be sexual with other Men.

Man Space

Man Hug

Man Sex

Man Love

Normal

Natural

Common

It's good that Men are beginning to show each other more affection in public.

What they -- and society -- think privately about that affection -- needs to change.

Bill Weintraub

© All material Copyright 2006 by Bill Weintraub. All rights reserved.

Harold

Re: Something Extraordinary

12-27-2006

Bill

You are absolutely correct and thank you for pointing out the bigger problems of labels and other people's perceptions. One of my new year's resolutions is to work on dropping this incorrect way of thinking. If I really think about the kiss we exchanged (see previous post), I realize that we both enjoyed the experience and I should view it as a token of friendship between two men who had the opportunity to spend a few moments together.

Here's wishing a happy, peaceful, and healthy new year to you and the others who use this forum to express themselves.

Robert Loring

Re: Something Extraordinary

12-30-2006

I agree with Bill. All the labels ARE the PROBLEM! It IS NORMAL and NATURAL for Men to seek the company of other Men and to show each other affection. And it is NORMAL and NATURAL for Men to be sexual with other Men. And Redd's idea that we are all HOMO (which means "man") sexual is closer to the TRUTH than perhaps some of you want to believe.

Labeling most often serves to divide people and to KEEP them divided. Yet, labels are ONLY as applicable and powerful as WE ourselves make them! When we deem a label as being non-applicable and non-powerful then those labels tend to come to have NO meaning and disappear.

The FACT is that most people are bisexual, meaning MOST people SWING BOTH WAYS! But then again there is yet ANOTHER label.

Men DENY and REJECT their attraction (sexual or otherwise) to other males out of FEAR. Homophobia is the result and HOMOPHOBIA is a PRISON of not only the mind but also of the heart. Homophobia serves to keep males separated and apart. It serves to DESTROY our INNATE sense of BROTHERLY LOVE and our NEED for bonding with OTHER MALES! Homophobia ultimately results in LONLINESS and sometimes self rejection.

In other cultures it is ACCEPTABLE for men to kiss other men but NOT in PARANOID American society steeped in it's loft of homophobia and wayward self righteousness! In America we PRIDE ourselves on our Puritan heritage yet, an elementary study of the Puritans reveals quickly that they were PSYCHOTICS suffering from GROSS RELIGIOUS IDEATIONS. In terms of their thinking (or LACK thereof) regarding sexual matters the Puritans REALLY had some PROBLEMS. They were not simply people with SEXUAL PROBLEMS and SPIRITUAL problems but they were also KILLERS (let us not forget the Witch "trials"--EXECUTIONS-that they so "faithfully" carried out in the "name of God"....BUT of course!). And THIS is what WE pride ourselves on? This SICK and TWISTED self righteous, murderous HERITAGE???

The world, our society, and we ourselves will ONLY achieve CHANGE when we begin to ACCEPT rather than REJECT ourselves and our NATURAL affections towards our fellow man! Until we each do that then we will continue to dwell in the CESSPOOL that society with all it's labels has so UNgraciously handed us! Loneliness will continue and grow! Men will continue to dwell in vacuums fearing not only other males but also fearing their own selves! And, each and every one of us will continue to LOSE!!

Label yourselves with whatever erroneous label you so choose BUT how about just calling yourself "MAN" because that IS, afterall, what YOU ARE. Each of us can spend our time in worry over what others MIGHT think OR we can do what we want and, thus, grow towards HAPPINESS.

Frances

Re: Something Extraordinary

12-31-2006

I think we should all engrave the image of those Iranian boys hanged for love upon our hearts.

If same sex attraction were so rare there would be absolutely no need to legislate against it. There would be no need for societal sanctions, whether that be hanging as was done in a religiously fundamentalist state like Iran, or the simple nasty stare of someone terrified of their own homosexuality as experienced in this country.

Every time we betray our fear of loving those within our own sex, as much as we love the opposite, we affirm the righteousness of an act that ended two boys' lives.

Bill Weintraub

Re: Something Extraordinary

1-3-2007

Thank you Harold, Robert, and Frances.

Frances says

Every time we betray our fear of loving those within our own sex, as much as we love the opposite, we affirm the righteousness of an act that ended two boys' lives.

Right.

Robert says

The world, our society, and we ourselves will ONLY achieve CHANGE when we begin to ACCEPT rather than REJECT ourselves and our NATURAL affections towards our fellow man! Until we each do that then we will continue to dwell in the CESSPOOL that society with all it's labels has so UNgraciously handed us! Loneliness will continue and grow! Men will continue to dwell in vacuums fearing not only other males but also fearing their own selves! And, each and every one of us will continue to LOSE!!

Label yourselves with whatever erroneous label you so choose BUT how about just calling yourself "MAN" because that IS, afterall, what YOU ARE. Each of us can spend our time in worry over what others MIGHT think OR we can do what we want and, thus, grow towards HAPPINESS.

Also right.

This message thread has been sitting at the top of the list for a few days.

Yet yesterday this post was submitted to Frot Club:

Averageguy

Frot with average guy

Looking for frot partner not interested in relationship (because I'm not gay). Experienced Frot in my youth, best sex I ever had. If interested please respond. Privacy a total must.

Now:

On the Frot Club splash page I ask the guys to please familiarize themselves with the Alliance and the ideal of Heroic Homosex before they post.

Of course, most of them don't bother to do that.

The loss is theirs.

Look at what this guy says:

Best sex he ever had was Frot.

But he's "not gay."

So he doesn't want a relationship with another man.

Just a "frot partner."

But if you're meeting someone once a week or once a month or whatever for sex, you are in a relationship -- of some sort.

When he says he's "not gay," he means that he likes having sex with women too.

But clearly he's "not straight" either, because he's looking to have sex with another man.

Indeed, the best sex he ever had was sex with another man.

So what he's actually doing with the labels is using them to close himself off to the possibility of a TRUE relationship with another guy.

Now, I deleted his post.

Maybe I shouldn't have done that.

But it seemed to me that what he was going for was an utterly soul-less and purely sexual hooking-up with another male.

And that's not what we're about.

That's what Ted Haggard had with his male prostitute.

A way of pretending that he wasn't attracted and didn't need to authentically connect with another man.

Again, that's not what the Alliance is about.

It's the MAN2MAN Alliance.

And on some level all the men on the site need to be able to accept that they have an innate male need to connect with another man, physically, psychologically, and SPIRITUALLY.

And we're not doing anyone any favors by facilitating liaisons which are devoid of those elements -- and particularly the last two.

The sexual connection is probably the least important.

It's why those men are posting in Frot Club.

But it's not the point.

Yes, when men connect sexually we want them to connect phallically.

But we also want them to connect as MEN --

that is to say, as Masculine HUMAN BEINGS.

Not just as penises.

The way these labels function for a lot of guys, particularly the straight-identified guys, is to enable them to have some sort of sex with other men while being in denial about their own true need for a Manly connection -- Man2Man.

That's why a lot of the sex at rest stops / urinals is one male "servicing" another orally.

Because it's not connected.

For either.

For the gay-identified guys, the label is a way to escape a Manliness which they think they do not possess and to which they believe they are not entitled.

So the gay label functions as an excuse which enables them to live out a very oppressive societal expectation.

In both cases, it's the male's Natural Masculinity and innate Manliness which take it on the chin -- which are badly damaged.

Suppose then that at a rest stop, instead of having a "straight" guy getting sucked off by a "gay" guy, you have two MEN standing face 2 face and heart 2 heart, who achieve a higher order of Masculinity through the mutual exaltation of their Manhood.

There's a big difference.

Society is comfortable with the first;

and fears the second.

Because the second is CONNECTED.

Remember the anecdote my foreign friend told about the stallions in The Power of the Masculine:

How two bonded stallions are impossible to control, and horse trainers in his native land therefore seek to bond a stallion with a mare.

And thus render the stallion docile.

He asks:

Isn't it how they treat humans? Does it tell us anything about human [exclusive] heterosexuality and how it is made possible? Doesn't the society use various mechanisms to psychologically keep men away from men sexually so as to keep them from forming intimacy?

Doesn't the society punish and reward men in order to train them to bond with women? And then claim that heterosexuality is natural / normal?

Isn't that what society does?

And doesn't society use these labels for just that purpose?

Frances:

Every time we betray our fear of loving those within our own sex, as much as we love the opposite, we affirm the righteousness of an act that ended two boys' lives.

And which blights the lives of literally billions of men.

Robert:

The world, our society, and we ourselves will ONLY achieve CHANGE when we begin to ACCEPT rather than REJECT ourselves and our NATURAL affections towards our fellow man! Until we each do that then we will continue to dwell in the CESSPOOL that society with all it's labels has so UNgraciously handed us! Loneliness will continue and grow! Men will continue to dwell in vacuums fearing not only other males but also fearing their own selves! And, each and every one of us will continue to LOSE!!

Label yourselves with whatever erroneous label you so choose BUT how about just calling yourself "MAN" because that IS, afterall, what YOU ARE. Each of us can spend our time in worry over what others MIGHT think OR we can do what we want and, thus, grow towards HAPPINESS.

Thank you all.

FIGHT BACK guys.

DONATE

© All material Copyright 2007 by Bill Weintraub. All rights reserved.

Redd

Re: Something Extraordinary

1-5-2007

Condemning natural bonding only forces people to hide, but condemnation doesn't erase the desire for connecting.

Condemnation, which is what labeling is, forces people to wear masks, and as a result encourages dishonesty. Why dishonesty? Because we worry about not living up to one label to live up to another.

So to be considered heterosexual, we have to not do anything that would suggest homosexual. So heterosexual is defined by its binary opposite homosexual and vice versa. In other words, one knows one is heterosexual by not doing things homosexual, and one knows one is homosexual by not doing things heterosexual. These terms--heterosexual and homosexual--depend on each other for meaning. They mean what the other doesn't, supposedly.

That's why everything gets divided into hetero and homo categories. That's why people want to know if you are gay or straight. That's why guys post in Frot Club that they are not gay when they're desiring male companionship (See Bill's The Metrics of Analism, or, Pissing in the Soup post).

Bill and others have correctly identified, I believe, that labels imprison. Labels force people to act unnaturally toward each other because labels hone fear. We shouldn't fear connecting.

The labels "heterosexual" and "homosexual" have the same meaning. Perhaps someone can develop better than my feeble attempt here this point about these terms having the same meaning.

Redd

Justin

Re: Something Extraordinary

1-10-2007

Good stories, guys (the first two posts of this discussion). I personally have never witnessed anything like that personally, but it is great that men are being themselves and showing mutual affection. I agree with Bill's statement, that it is not a good thing to put people in the box of "hetero" or any other box.

I was out the other night having a few drinks with a coworker of mine. I admit, I was a little tipsy and freely blabbing about things I would not normally talk about. This coworker of mine has really become a good friend of mine, and she knows that I like guys so there is no tension or hidden aganeda for us having a good time together. I was talking about not being "gay" but being a MSM (a Man sexually attracted to Man, none of this butch/femme asshole shit). She understood and said that most guys who like guys that she knows are like that, too. I kept thinking to myself, "Would you indroduce me to these guys?" LOL! In my state of not being all there, I shared my fantasy of being with another guy and some of the details. She just laughed and slapped me for being so silly and somewhat raunchy.

I wasn't sober enough to drive home, so she dropped me off back at work (the store is open 24 hours), so I could hang around and sober up. I was chatting with one of the overnighters and somehow we got on the subject of friendships. We were talking about how guys in our culture really don't have male-male (a bit of the olde English, if you please) "bosom friends." A good buddy that you can share everything with, laugh with, cry with, tell all your secrets to. I mentioned that the reason for this, in my humble opinion, is homophobia. I explained that everybody is interested not in how relationships really work, but placing everybody in the "hetero/homo/bi" box of classification. Because of this, guys can't be themselves with other guys, male-male relationships are strained and awkward. We all wear the mask of pseudo-machoism; not being able to be close with other men.

Now as I have had time to think, I realize some of this "homophobia" is society's reaction to the BFD and society's loathing of anal.

And this is how we react to anal and analism too, with disgust and vile feeling. It is the job of us frotbrothers to come along side those who share our loathing of anal and explain to them that there is an alternative. Real guys who love guys don't practice promiscuity, anal penetration, multiple parternerism. We are about Man for Man Love; fidelity, romance, brotherhood, unity, mutual respect.

We are not "phobic" or opposed to homosexuality, but rather against the way our society has skewed the view of homosexuality, turning it into a mockery of heterosexualism and in effect castrating men into psuedo-women, not to forget mentioning the war of disease and death that anal penetration wages against humanity. In essence, it is the central dogma of Analism, "Effeminance and Death." Whereas Frot shouts "Brotherhood, Equality, Unity."

P.S. Thanks, Bill.