Robert Loring

Re: My GAY Identity Crisis

12-09-2002

I like the term you suggest (ie: "grek" guy). It makes a distinction between us and the gays and that distinction, in my opinion, needs to be made because the term "gay" is associated with anal male sex, yet that is not something we do so, technically, we are not "gay".

We don't really fit into "bisexual" either and we certainly do not fit the term "lesbian".

I think we are warriors at heart and we are masculine warriors at that. Most of us are following in the traditions of the ancient Hoplite warriors even if we dont realize it so maybe "hoplite" would be another name for us. Hoplite or grek, I like them both, but I think I like "grek guy" the best. Something about it reflects our taken on Greek Hoplite tradition and something about it not only speaks of warriorship but also of sanity and intelligence.

Thank you for suggesting this term.

Sir Robert

Greg

Re: My GAY Identity Crisis

12-10-2002

Warriors, salut :)

Thank you sir robert for taking my last post so well.

Yes, you are totally right "technically" we warriors are "not gay" because the term gay is without any doubt associated with the practice of anal sex.

At least i do share your opinion in this point.

A real warrior will never engage in anal sex because it would undermine his pride, his strength and his masculine identity.

With other words "A WARRIOR DOES NOT PRACTICE ANAL SEX, NEVER!", it's not part of his identity.

And that is exactly why i can't anymore identify myself as a "gay" guy.

I remember the last years, every time i said to sombody that i'm gay, i always had the urge to say at the same time "yes i'm gay, but i do not practice anal sex."

Understandably, i didn't do it because it would have sounded very stupid.

On the one hand i was proud to let the world know that i "love" men but on the other hand there was shame in it as well, because there was always the association of "anal sex" present.

I don't think that i have to explain why anal sex is a shameful act to us warriors.

It undermines our true being, the way we feel and not because homophobic straights taught us to think so.

Yes, sir robert, as you say "WE ARE WARRIORS AT HEART."

The heart is the place, where these our basic character traits come from, that make us use our "sexual orientation" the way we feel we have to do it, in order to reach fullfillment and correct identity translation.

And i want to add to this that i also think, that not just ones' "sexual orientation" is determined by our GENES, it's our "basic character traits" that are as well determined by them. (well i think....i dont have any scientific prove yet).

A statement like this is for me not in total contradiction to the "reality" that the personal expression of ones "sexual orientation" is influenced by culture and society (anal way contra warrior way), yes, it's true, culture forms the way of expression of one's "sexual orientation".

But, it's not just culture, it's the genes as well that induce basic character traits and let us live out our "sexual orientation" the way we feel we have to.

And im not talking here about fetish stuff.

Thats why i think, that we warriors need our own word, that will stand for our sexual/identity identification in public.

("grek" and proud)....or any other word.

D'vorjakque

Re: My GAYIdentity Crisis

12-12-2002

Actually, I'm not so sure that coining a new word would be beneficial, since doing so would allow the word gay, replete with its present meaning, to permanently stand as it is now. Obviously, doing such could only strengthen the current cultural nature of homosexuality, and would almost certianly plunge frottage into the fetish world by default. Rather, the best approach I believe would be to seek to redefine the word gay, to drive it away from effeminacy and its capacity to be used as an insult. By doing this, not only would homosexuality as a whole become more masculine in its nature, but homosexuality would without question be able to reclaim much of its dignity.

Bill Weintraub

Re: My GAY Identity Crisis

12-12-2002

hi warriors

many guys are struggling with these issues of how we self-identify and how we identify ourselves to others, and each person brings his own perspective based on his own experience

i want to comment on some of what you guys have said

what's important to me here is that all three of you guys -- Greg, Robert, and Dvorjakque -- understand clearly and uncompromisingly that gay male culture *as it's currently constituted* is our enemy

and the worst sort of enemy, because it masquerades as a friend, and then it betrays

but what Dvorjakque appears not to understand, as evidenced in his first post (I am truly fascinated and enlightened), is that it's the cultural tyranny of *anal* sex which accounts for almost all that is wrong with that culture

for it's the culturally enforced prevalence of anal penetration which is responsible for the promiscuity, disease, and effeminacy so widespread in today's gay male mainstream

further, the problem i have with "work from within" is that we've been trying to do so for more than two years, with very little success

that's a process which pre-dates Dvorjakque's discovery of the site, and so he may not understand how deadset the gay male establishment is against Frot, nor has he seen the lengths to which that establishment will go to censor us while protecting and proselytizing for anal penetration

and too, i don't think he realizes how, for many str8 guys, the word "gay" has been irrevocably compromised by its association with anal

for example, a man like my lover Patrick, who's been sexually exclusively straight most of his life, and culturally, arguably, remains straight, strongly dislikes the word gay because of its associations with anal, promiscuity, and effeminacy

those are two very big problems: the gay media isn't open to any sort of discussion of our ideas, no matter how tepidly we present them; and it's doubtful that among nongay people we can divorce the word gay from anal

so should we secede?

well, we're certainly moving in that direction

at the same time, i feel that most of you -- and this is not directed at Greg or Robert personally -- have done far too little to attempt to wrest the word "gay" from the analists

for example, i posted at the beginning of the week about the Independent's openly gay columnist Philip Hensher, who suggested that the word "sodomite" replace the word "gay"; and i asked that people write him to explain that they're gay but don't do anal sex (see "Not-so-Independent" on our Personal Stories board)

so far as i know, no one besides myself wrote him

that's pretty sad

because if you won't take 30 seconds to write him, you can't really blame him for thinking that gay = anal and for telling his readers, including his nongay readers, the same

so -- before you surrender the word "gay", you need to fight for it

and so far as i'm concerned that fight has not been fully made

of course one reason that so few frot guys will attempt a dialogue of that nature is that they feel that most gay men simply won't listen

but it's also too often the case that people won't talk that particular talk because it's about sex and man2man sex at that

yet you can't win this one without coming out as a man who loves other men and who also loves phallus-to-phallus sex

and you have to do that with almost everyone you know -- just like those of you who are gay did, hopefully, when you came out as a gay man

in any case, clearly this is going to be an ongoing discussion, and i welcome further contributions

now, i do want to address a specific point which Dvorjakque brought up, regarding Frot as a fetish

unfortunately, a huge number of gay men already dismiss Frot as a fetish

my response is that if sticking your dick in a hole full of shit isn't a fetish, i don't know what is

and i'm not kidding

"fetish" refers to a sexual interest in things non-human and non-living, such as latex or leather

and to certain non-genital but human body parts -- for example, feet

so -- given that the anus is not a genital organ, and that it's full of fecal material, i think it's more than fair to call anal penetration a fetish

but one cannot use the term "fetish" to refer to an attraction to genital-genital sex

which is what Frot is

we don't, after all, say that men who like to fuck women have a vagina fetish

my point is that analists are going to accuse us of fetishism, just as they accuse us of being immature, no matter what we call ourselves

and i think the best defense is an offense -- which in this case means *accurate* characterizations of anal penetration and of Frot

for example, analists constantly sanitize butt-fucking, most notably of course in porn, where buttholes are neatly shaved, there are never any dingleberries, and dicks are scrupulously shit-free

anyone who's done anal knows that's a whitewash

the reality is that buttholes are for shitting, and that they're more often shitty than not

you can clean the anus temporarily, but it's there to process feces, and fecal material is always present

can an analist say anything similarly nasty about Frot?

no -- because Frot isn't nasty

and it's not a fetish -- it's genital-genital sex

that's the truth, that's reality, it's the analists who are living in fantasy and fetish land, and we should never let them forget it

regarding character traits:

i understand Greg's point that there may be certain character traits that better enable men to resist the cultural forces which impose anal penetration upon certain men who have sex with men

but we have no reason to believe that those character traits are genetic -- they could just as easily be learned at one's father's or mother's knee

moreover, i want to caution everyone on the site, as i just have in a number of recent posts, particularly Culture, Culture, Culture and Analist Follies, from falling into the analist trap that there's some genetic basis for Frot or anal themselves

i repeat, that's an analist trap and you must learn to recognize it as such

i've written about this extensively, and i'm feeling a bit frustrated, because i shouldn't have to keep re-visiting this issue

so i ask you all to please read those posts and their linked articles

a cultural analysis of the dominant culture of anal penetration is key to this site and key to your survival in this society

finally, the Cockster has contributed an important new essay to the site which addresses just these topics of culture identity

it's called Cultural Polarisation and can be found here

Greg

Re: My GAY Identity Crisis

12-14-2002

Hi Warriors

Well, after reading "cultural polarization" by martin finn, henshers "sodomite" article and the replies to "gay identity crisis" my head's a bit dizzy.

Well, i have to admit, currently i'm not in my best "powerbrain " form,:).

But i will try to reply and give my thoughts to that as efficient as possible (in my broken english).

First, martin clearly gives a picture of how "culture" is or can be constructed and the dynamical cycle within that particular "cultural construct".

In this case it's the "existence" and "dynamic" of today's "mainstream gay culture" which is in his main focus. And what it means, and how it effects us "warriors" and the so called straight-identified men that engage in male samesex??? well, could it be that we are talking here actually about bisexual men that reject anal sex???

However, my first post about "my gay identity crisis" was mainly about the the undeleteable association of the term "gay" and "anal sex", my problems with that and my difficulties to keep up my identification with the word gay. So everything was mainly focused on the "gay/anal" side. But bashing out the "gay" side doesnt mean that i have great syhmpathies for the "straight" side either. For sure not.

For far too long have "warriors" been under the relentless pressure of "straight men culture" forced to deny their emotional/erotic feelings towards the same sex and to have vaginal intercourse with woman in order to receive social recognition as masculine men (or even human beings).

This past times are as hell as the buttfuckdictatorship establishment of today.

So where are we in this story???

First, we call ourself warriors, which is no accident in my view.

We do neither receive our masculine identity by vaginal intercourse nor by anal intercourse; our identity as it is now is received as warriors and fighters.

Against whom do we fight?

We do fight against the gay analists as we do fight against the straight vaginalists.

For what do we fight? For our freedom to love the same sex and for the survival of love between man.

What are our best weapons?

Well,:), if we are skilled in martial arts a good kick or punch will do,:) on the other hand the firm belief in male "virginity" (no anal) and then the rest, talking, arguing, convincing and giving an alternative to anal.

By the way, the last lines of martin finn's essay says it all, "If the cultural polarization of gay male society is spinning off as excess baggage, men who dont fit the mould (anal sex decliners), then the dynamik of that polarization allows us to take our desires and aspirations into a new space....AS YET UNDEFINED...hybrid from both gay and mainstream societal norms"

SO LET'S GO FOR IT.

Let's give us a definition (greks???), take possesion of the new space, and do our work as hybrids of gay and mainstream societal norm in unifying homo and hetero side in a way ONLY WE CAN.

I would like to write more, but have to finish now.

So further posts in which i will respond on henshers article and bill's respond to "gay identity crisis" will follow shortly

Greg

Re: My GAY Identity Crisis

12-15-2002

Hi Warriors

Well, reading henshers article and as a "warrior" on my own i have to say i don't really care much, how hensher tends to rename "gays" into "sodomites".

As somebody who started to reject the term gay because of its undeleteable association to anal sex, "gays, sodomites, pink cakes" or whatever are just the extreme version of male to male sexual expression (anal sex) where "sex" is put up high in the skys and masculine male "love" is denied.

Nothing else with the extreme "straight "version where male to male love is allowed (good friends) but sexual contact is denied totally.

For me it's clear that only we warriors have the natural talent to keep the right balance in male to male relations, that's why i demand "cultural supremacy" of the warrior way.

As a response to bill's post on "gay identity crisis", for me personally the break with "gay" is done (gay is anal/anal is gay) you can't divorce it.

And innerly i dont feel as i have surrender anything.

For me it's more like a huge relief of something that only brought misunderstanding and confusion in my life. Similar as it was with my identification with "straight" a long time ago (straight is vaginal and vaginal is straight) and im not that.