Frot Club Post

Mid-west man seeking LTR

I am wanting to experience a man to man relationship. I have never been with a man. I chose to lead a normal life, to live the American dream, and to try and deny my attraction to men. I am a married dad, and enjoying a good life. But my denial has not worked of course, so now I would like to meet someone in a similar situation. I want to feel the passion two men can experience by being together. I am interested in cuddling, kissing, stroking, and to enjoy the male body. I will not entertain any anal action of any kind, no exceptions. I am not interested in men that are interested in anal at all. I am looking for a "like minded" man.

Getting to know someone first is very important, and it should also be important to the other man also, there must be some chemistry between us. I believe that would make for a much stronger relationship, and would be so rewarding for both of us. I would like to meet someone that feels having lunch or dinner together, or just having a cup of coffee together would be enough for that meeting. I want someone that can share his thoughts with me, and that I can trust with my deepest desires. But, to be honest, I want to feel the touch of a man, and to have him want me in the same way.

I am a fit, lean 60 year old man that looks much younger than his age. I have a full head of hair, I am 6'1" tall, 160 pounds, a 7" plus cock, medium hairy body, but some would say I am hairy. I do not shave my body, and will not shave my body. I like the natural God given look of a man. I do not smoke or drink. I am a very straight acting and talking man, and want the same in my partner. Nobody, and I mean nobody has any idea I desire a relationship with a man, and I want it to stay that way. So, I am looking for a man where discretion is very important.

If you are interested in meeting someone like me, please feel free to contact me.

Email

Subject: My first FROT experience

Dear Bill,

I just wanted to let you know that I experienced my first man to man experience as a result of my posting on your site.

It was amazingly beautiful, sensual, and so rewarding for the both of us.

I am married, so is he, and we are both about the same age, 2 years difference. After finally meeting and getting to know each other in person, we decided to get a hotel room and just see how it would go. First, we just undress each other slowly, actually by playing an adjusted version of strip poker, more like spin the bottle. lol Then we just took a long shower together, holding each other close and gently grinding our bodies together. Then he suggested a long oiled body massage, and that was wonderful. To actually massage the naked body of a man, to feel his muscles, and run my hands through his hair. It seemed so natural, and so beautiful, because we respected what each other wanted and was comfortable doing. Long story short, several hours together, three showers, with cuddling, kissing, grinding bodies together in between showers. No anal, and no oral action. This was a truly unbelievable experience for us both, and we hope to make this happen again in the near future.

Thank you for this site, and for posting my story. I met this wonderful man because of you.

Joe

Reply from:

Bill Weintraub

Re: My first FROT experience

Hey Joe

Thank you for this, and for your thanks.

I'm glad you had such a good experience.

I hope you have many more.

Joe, I'll be posting this in a few days.

Please be patient -- I'll send you the URL when it's been posted.

Thank you again.

Bill

Reply from:

Joe

Re: My first FROT experience

Dear Bill,

Wow, I didn't know you would post my letter, I just thought it would be for your reading, and to say thank you. I am not sure how the individual I was with might react if he were to read my letter to you. I really would prefer you not post it.

Thank you Bill,

Joe

Reply from:

Bill Weintraub

Re: My first FROT experience

Hi Joe

Great hearing back from you!

Wow, I didn't know you would post my letter,

Yes -- we have many "my first frot experience" posts on the site.

They're there because guys want them posted.

I just thought it would be for your reading, and to say thank you.

I understand.

But that's not the best way to say Thank you to me.

Because I'm an activist.

The best way to thank me -- is to let me post your experience.

I am not sure how the individual I was with might react if he were to read my letter to you. I really would prefer you not post it.

Okay.

Joe, look.

Try to understand something.

The Man2Man Alliance is an *Alliance.*

It's a group of guys working *together* to HELP each other.

That's the point.

And that's why we emphasize terms like Warrior Altruism.

Altruism is essential to Men and to what we do.

So -- other guys posted on the site about their first frot experience, and those posts were read by other guys -- including, presumably, you -- and that reading helped give those guys the courage to act on their long-denied feelings.

The problem I have with your not wanting this posted is that -- You benefitted from the posted experiences of other guys --

but you want to withhold that information from them.

That's not what the Alliance is about.

And it's not what being a Man is about.

So -- if you don't want me to post it -- I won't post it.

But remember -- that when you needed help from me -- and from the Alliance -- we were there for you.

Now we're asking you to be here for us -- and you don't want to.

Why not?

Joe, you're using an internet pseudonym anyway.

No one will know who you are or who the other guy is.

There's no risk to you.

But a lot of potential gain to some other Man who will read your experience and gain courage from it.

Please think it over.

Bill

Reply from:

Joe

Re: My first FROT experience

Hi Bill,

Thank you for your response to my letter. Bill, I totally understand what you said, and I am in total agreement with you. Because of you and the alliance I did experience something wonderful and beautiful. So thank you again Bill, and feel free to post my first FROT experience.

Take care,

Joe

Reply from:

Bill Weintraub

Re: My first FROT experience

Hey Joe

That's great!

And I greatly appreciate your willingness to work with me - - and with and for your fellow Warriors.

Now -- we can leave your email address off of the post.

That we can do.

The downside of doing that is that no one can contact you.

But that's up to you.

If you feel that this guy you met is the right guy -- then you don't need any more contacts.

So -- just let me know:

With email address or without.

It'll take me a couple days in any case.

So you have time.

Joe, thank you again and again.

Bill

Reply from:

Joe

Re: My first FROT experience

Hi Bill,

Thanks again for your response to my last email. Bill, this is really a dilemma for me, to leave my email address or not. The man I was with could be the one, but he, like myself is having guilt and deceit issues now. For the both of us, this was the first time we have ever been with a man, and it is also the first time both of us have been with someone other than our wives. We have to work through these feelings before either of us move on.

Bill, I believe the best thing to do would be to post WITHOUT my email address. I appreciate that option and your communication with me. I would feel better knowing my address is not out there for others at this time.

Thank you Bill, you are truly a nice man, and very understanding.

Take care, and I will keep you informed on what happens if you are interested.

Joe

Reply from:

Bill Weintraub

Re: My first FROT experience

Hey Joe

It's great hearing back from you!

Thanks again for your response to my last email. Bill, this is really a dilemma for me, to leave my email address or not. The man I was with could be the one, but he, like myself is having guilt and deceit issues now. For the both of us, this was the first time we have ever been with a man, and it is also the first time both of us have been with someone other than our wives. We have to work through these feelings before either of us move on.

Okay.

This is something we've discussed many many many many times on the site.

Including very recently:

I love the female body, but the cock is also wonderful

And less recently:

a sick society that forces men to repress their natural, wholesome feelings of love for each other

Basically, Joe, male-male takes place in a totally separate sphere of your life from male-female.

Totally separate.

That's the way it's always been seen, and by cultures which have been FAR WISER than is ours.

Will you guys come to that realization?

Beats me.

I've done as much as I can do.

I can't keep explaining and re-explaining this.

It's very clear.

And you guys have to figure it out.

In your Frot Club post, Joe, you said "my denial has not worked of course."

And that's right.

Denial doesn't work.

If denial worked, no one would ever die.

Right?

Because people would be in denial about their cancer or heart condition, and the cancer or heart condition would go away.

That isn't what happens.

And that won't happen here either.

You have the feelings you have because you're a MAN.

That's why you have those feelings.

They will not EVER go away.

Not ever.

You will have them forever.

Is that bad news?

NO!!!!!!!

It's good news.

It means that your life -- and that of your new friend -- can be far richer than those lives are now.

My advice:

You've found each other.

In [little mid-western locale], of all places.

Don't lose each other.

DO THE READING.

DO THE READING.

DO THE READING.

Look at Sex Between Men: An Activity Not A Condition --

again.

Read all the associated posts -- they're at the end of that article.

Then:

Start at the top of the message list in Personal Stories

or Warriors Speak VIII.

It's the same list in both places --

and read EVERY SINGLE SOLITARY POST.

Read every one.

Communicate, if you want, with some of the other married guys.

And get together -- with your new friend -- again.

See how you feel about each other.

You said, "It was amazingly beautiful, sensual, and so rewarding for the both of us."

You said, "To actually massage the naked body of a man, to feel his muscles, and run my hands through his hair. It seemed so natural, and so beautiful."

That's what you said.

Do you really want to give that up?

And never have it again?

Both of you guys have to decide who to trust --

What American culture tells you about male-male --

Or what your FEELINGS tell you about male-male.

Nevermind about Bill Weintraub.

Listen to your FEELINGS.

Listen to them.

Listen to your heart.

Your True and Manly Heart.

Bill, I believe the best thing to do would be to post WITHOUT my email address.

Okay -- I can do that, but I was going to talk about your Frot Club post as well.

Do you want to take that down?

Because your email address is out there.

I appreciate that option and your communication with me. I would feel better knowing my address is not out there for others at this time.

But it is there.

We can leave it off of Personal Stories.

And we can take down the Frot Club post.

And really maybe we should.

Because -- like I said -- you guys have found each other.

Make a go of it.

Don't throw it away.

IT IS VERY HARD TO FIND ANOTHER GUY -- the way you guys have.

DON'T THROW IT AWAY.

Thank you Bill, you are truly a nice man,

Okay.

But only to a point.

I'm a human being too.

I need for you guys to read and to think.

and very understanding.

Yes -- that part is correct.

I am understanding.

Both of what you're feeling -- and the bullshit which has led both of you guys to think as you do.

That bullshit is -- bullshit.

It's wrong.

100% wrong.

Male-male -- Man2Man -- when done as we recommend -- is a social good.

It's a blessing.

A gift from God.

Now -- the one area in which you guys erred, from my point of view, is that you went to bed too soon.

I tell all of you -- to date, to court.

And you said in your Frot Club post, "I would like to meet someone that feels having lunch or dinner together, or just having a cup of coffee together would be enough for that [first] meeting."

But then you went to bed together anyways.

That's understandable.

You've been repressing this for sixty years.

Not surprising that -- you didn't want to wait.

Nevertheless -- I have NO doubt -- the failure to wait -- is part of the problem.

You acted too soon.

Well, and that said, no point in crying over spilled milk.

I'd suggest that you guys get together again, keep it 100% non-sexual, and see how you feel about each other.

And then take it from there.

Take care, and I will keep you informed on what happens if you are interested.

Yes -- please keep me informed.

And feel free to share this email -- or just the suggested readings -- with your buddy.

Very important that BOTH of you read.

Bill

Reply from:

Joe

Re: My first FROT experience

Hello Bill,

Thank you again for your in depth reply. My friend and I have talked, and we are working through this. We are not done, and plan on seeing each other in the near future, but this time just to talk. He did ask me if I was going to leave my post on man2manalliance, hoping for another responder. I told him no, I would have it removed.

So, I would like my post removed Bill. I really can not believe I have found someone that is such a perfect match. We have so much in common, and what we shared was beautiful for both of us. We don't want to lose that, we want it to last, so now we are going to back step and take things slower.

Thank you Bill for your guidance. I guess we can read and read and say we know what we are getting ourselves into. But, then after that first actual experience with a man is over, and we go home to our families, the old feelings and sterotype thinking kicks in, and you find yourself second guessing your actions, and feeling guilty. But we are moving on with our relationship. I will keep you posted Bill how things work out for us.

Joe

Reply from:

Bill Weintraub

Re: My first FROT experience

Hey Joe,

It's great hearing back from you!

Thank you again for your in depth reply.

Joe, you're very welcome.

My friend and I have talked, and we are working through this.

Good!

We are not done, and plan on seeing each other in the near future, but this time just to talk.

Good!

He did ask me if I was going to leave my post on man2manalliance, hoping for another responder. I told him no, I would have it removed.

Good!

So, I would like my post removed, Bill.

Joe, I've removed it.

I really can not believe I have found someone that is such a perfect match.

Great!

We have so much in common, and what we shared was beautiful for both of us. We don't want to lose that,

Right.

we want it to last,

Right.

so now we are going to back step and take things slower.

Good.

Thank you Bill for your guidance

Again, Joe, you and your friend are very welcome.

That's what the Alliance is here for.

I guess we can read and read and say we know what we are getting ourselves into.

Right.

But, then after that first actual experience with a man is over, and we go home to our families, the old feelings and sterotype thinking kicks in, and you find yourself second guessing your actions, and feeling guilty.

Right.

Which is why we need Regional Chapters where you can get real-world, real-time, peer support for -- being a Man.

And being Men.

But we are moving on with our relationship.

Great!

I will keep you posted Bill how things work out for us.

Good.

And Joe, what I'm going to do, is post your "first FROT," plus your Frot Club post -- without the state or any other identifiers -- and your subsequent emails and my responses.

And Joe, that will really help other guys.

It will be immensely helpful to them.

So again -- it'll take me a few days to get to it.

But once it's done -- you'll have done a very good thing --

You'll have been helped by the Alliance.

And you'll have helped other guys in return.

Joe, thank you again for your willingness to work with me.

And to help others.

That's a major part of being a Warrior.

And maybe you and your friend can begin thinking of yourselves -- as Warriors.

Warriors on behalf of your own True and Manly Lives.

Bill

Afterword from Bill Weintraub

So, guys, what you can see here are two Men -- guys like yourselves -- your fellow Men -- struggling to come to terms with their own very normal and natural Man2Man needs and desires.

And it is a struggle.

Because those Men, like all of us, have been lied to all their lives -- both about what Man2Man is, and about what the role of Man2Man is -- in Men's lives.

Nevertheless, Joe and his friend do manage, with help from the Alliance, to find each other;

and then, with more help from the Alliance, make the decision to keep seeing each other.

Which I think is the right decision.

But it is clearly a struggle for them, a battle for them.

And what you need to see -- clearly -- is that without the Alliance, it's a battle they would have lost.

That's why The Man2Man Alliance is so important.

Over the last eleven years, we've helped tens of thousands of Men like Joe and his friend.

We could help hundreds of thousands -- literally millions -- more.

But to do that we need your support.

Why should you support us?

Because it's very much in your interest, your own narrow, selfish, self-centered, interest -- that we succeed.

Absent that success, you'll be forever trapped by the lies of sexual orientation -- and your own inadequacy and inability, on your own, to see through and overcome those lies.

But -- with our success will come what most people need -- cultural support.

It's as I often say:

Human beings aren't lone wolves.

Nor are we atoms spinning in some anomic space.

We're social animals who are strongly influenced by cultural messages -- usually in the form of peer pressure.

In post after post, article after article on this site, I've explained and DOCUMENTED the way ancient Greek Men were supported by their culture in their male-male love affairs.

When I say DOCUMENTED I mean by showing you pictures such as this one

Zeus and his wife Hera on Olympos
Zeus' male lover Ganymedes stands between them

and by citing famed classicists like K J Dover:

[The Greeks] did not consider homosexual [sic] relations incompatible with concurrent heterosexual [sic] relations or with marriage...

Translation: [The Greeks] did not consider male-male relations incompatible with concurrent male-female relations or with marriage...

and John Boswell:

Most ancient writers -- in striking opposition to their modern counterparts -- generally entertained higher expectations of the fidelity and permanence of male-male passions than of male-female feelings.

Plutarch adduces with evident disapproval cases of husbands who allowed their wives to be unfaithful to gain some advantage, and then notes, "By contrast, of all the many [same-sex] lovers there were and have been, do you know of a single one who surrendered his beloved, even to gain favor from Zeus? I do not." (Erotikos 760B).

The proponent of same-sex passion in the Hellenistic Affairs of the Heart says that wisdom and experience teach that love between males is the most stable of loves. This prejudice [sic] was doubtless influenced by the Symposium of Plato, in which heterosexual relationships and feelings are characterized as "vulgar," and their same-sex equivalents as "heavenly."

This contrast exercised wide influence on subsequent discussions of love.

~ Boswell, Same-Sex Unions in PreModern Europe

and by quoting directly from ancient literature -- for example, from Xenophon's Symposium, which I quote from at length in Prudence or the Pill -- and in which Sokrates describes the courtship of the youthful Pankration Victor Autolycus by his Male Lover, Callias, both of whom are praised for their Manly qualities:

Sokrates: But as for you, Callias, all the city knows that you are in love with Autolycus, and so, I think, do a great many men from abroad. The reason for this is the fact that you are both sons of distinguished fathers and are yourselves in the public eye.

Now, I have always felt an admiration for your character, but at the present time I feel a much keener one, for I see that you are in love with a person who is not marked by dainty elegance nor wanton effeminacy, but shows to the world physical strength and stamina, virile courage and sobriety. Setting one's heart on such traits gives an insight into the lover's character.

These were Masculine Men, Manly Men, who both married and had male Lovers.

Just like Joe and his friend.

But they didn't have to wait till they were in their sixties to do so.

Male-male love relationships -- and they were LOVE relationships, romantic, sexual, and above all Faithful -- began in adolescence

and continued through adulthood.

They were seen as having a military purpose -- strengthening the bonds between Warriors and making Men more Valorous.

Classicist J E Lendon:

[U]sing such [love] relationships between men as a font of military excellence is a transparent borrowing from Sparta, where such relationships were institutionalized, played a large role in the training of boys, and were thought to contribute to bravery in combat. At Sparta lover and beloved stood beside each other in the hoplite line; before battle the Spartans sacrificed to Eros, to love.

Again: male-male love served a military, a martial, purpose.

For just that reason --

Effeminacy, promiscuity, and anal were all proscribed -- forbidden.

Masculinity, Fidelity, and Frot were culturally sanctioned -- supported.

That's the way it was, and that's the way it can be again.

If you will only try.

IF ONLY -- YOU WILL TRY.

Once again I thank Joe for his willingness to tell his story to his fellow Men.

By doing so, Joe has Helped -- You.

Will you now Help another Man -- in turn?

Of course you don't have to.

But every time you fail to help your fellow Man -- you become less of a man.

Fortunately, the opposite is also true.

Every time you do Help your Fellow Man -- you yourself become more of a Man.

You become more Manly.

And with that Manliness comes Confidence and Courage -- the Courage you need to make the choices you need -- to fulfill your Life as a Man.

Your Manly Life.

Your one sweet and precious Manly Life.

It's yours to Win --

or lose.

Bill Weintraub

March 12, 2011

© All material Copyright 2011 by Bill Weintraub. All rights reserved.

Reply from:

Warrior Brian Hulme

Re: to feel the passion two men can experience by being together

3-14-2011

Hi Warrior Bill,

First I want to give a big THANK YOU to Warrior Joe for allowing his story to be posted, and I want him to know that he has helped me. I am encouraged that Yes I can find myself a man, someone to get close to and make love to (NB that is MAKE LOVE TO and not HAVE SEX WITH) so continue to develop the relationship with your man, then when you are both sure, that you feel love for one another, and you want to be a couple, seal the relationship by making love, bringing yourselves together in Eros (Man to Man love).

You know I lost 20 years or more, of my life struggling against myself, praying to be able to stop these "sinful ways" which I thought were wanting to be with a man but as it turned out was not -- so not being with a man but the way I had done it with that man that was the wrong way.

Now I know the right and God approved way, the way Joe found. Guys, add to that the Warrior Altruism of donating and we can help and continue to do so other men like Joe find the truth.

With Warrior Love

Brian

Reply from:

Bill Weintraub

Re: to feel the passion two men can experience by being together

3-14-2011

Thank you Warrior Man Brian.

Guys -- Brian says he lost 20 years or more.

Let's say Joe lost 50 and his friend lost 50.

50 + 50 + 20 = 120

Begins to add up, doesn't it?

When you don't donate, you hold on to your money, but you lose years.

And you only have so many years -- and then they're gone.

You can always make more money.

But you can't make more years.

Just the way it is.

Bill Weintraub

March 12, 2011

© All material Copyright 2011 by Bill Weintraub. All rights reserved.

Reply from:

Joe

Re: to feel the passion two men can experience by being together

3-15-2011

Dear Bill,

I just wanted to touch base with you again and thank you for being there for me, and for so many other men that struggle daily with the same issues as I do.

You know how reluctant I was having all my communications with you posted, but after reading all my letters to you, and then your responses to them, I am glad they are out there for others to read. I know my concerns, and my feelings of guilt and deceit are shared by other men just like me. We learn through each other, and in a way, it is like being together with many men and sharing our desires, and our most inner thoughts that have been kept hidden for so long. Just to be able to talk openly about my love and desires for a man to man experience has been a tremendous help to me. And fortunately, I have now experienced the beauty and passion two men can share with each other.

Ideally, I wish the man I met lived closer to me, but distance will not keep us apart. I could have met a man that lived next door, but if that special chemistry is not there, and if we are not "like minded" in what we both want in a relationship, I would still have nothing. My advice to all men that want to experience another man, is to be patient, and make sure you find the right person. The love and passion shared between two men that connect on many levels is absolutely beautiful, and is so worth waiting for. Probably any one of us men could have a cheap hookup, a blow and go encounter, but that's exactly how I would feel after that encounter, cheap! I am worth more than that, and deserve more than that, and so does the man I share myself with. Respect each other, and then enjoy the passion and total natural love two men can share.

I am looking forward to the next time I share myself with the man I met through man2manalliance, and so is he. Thank you for making this possible, I never thought I could experience something so beautiful and natural.

Take care Bill, and have a great day!

Joe