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AIDS agency arranges bathhouse tours for virgins



Bill Weintraub

Bill Weintraub

AIDS agency arranges bathhouse tours for virgins

12-3-2005

AIDS campaign draws fire

BY Elaine Carey, Toronto Star

The Toronto Star

November 25, 2005 Friday

SECTION: NEWS; Pg. C07

A Toronto public health official says she has no problems with an AIDS community group providing information on an unsafe sex act and bathhouse visits as part of its new education campaign.

But a director of the AIDS Committee of Toronto has quit in disgust over the campaign, arguing he can't condone using taxpayers' dollars to promote unsafe sex when HIV cases in Toronto are on the rise.

"This is crazy - it boggles my mind," said Richard Churchill, a 44-year-old gay businessman. "If 90 per cent of taxpayers knew they were using tax dollars for this, they would go through the roof."

The AIDS committee, a registered charitable organization, gets 60 per cent of its funding from various levels of government and received $271,400 from the Toronto public health department this year.

The committee has produced a deck of 26 cards, called Sex from A to Z, and one in particular explains an oral sex act that cannot be performed safely using contraceptives.

Barbara MacPherson, manager of the urban issues team at the Toronto public health department, said the cards, which weren't funded by the city, "seemed like a very artistic and innovative way of getting the safe sex message out."

But the card in question describes an act "that would be difficult to make safe," she acknowledged. "There are some sexual activities that it is impossible to make safe, but very few."

The committee is also hosting "Virgin Tours" of two Toronto bathhouses this Sunday for "curious bathhouse virgins," aimed at 18- to 25-year-olds.

But bathhouses are rampant with drugs, particularly crystal meth, which encourages unsafe sex, Churchill said.

"If I'm in a bathhouse, I'm 18 and high, I'm likely not going to make a conscious decision to have safe sex," he said. "And since when did the AIDS committee become agents for selling bathhouses?"

The AIDS committee was founded in 1983 to provide HIV prevention and education services for people living with or who were at risk for HIV/AIDS.

MacPherson said drug use is "an illegal activity that happens in all kinds of places. If someone wants to do drugs, there are all kinds of places to do them.

"I think a lot of the AIDS prevention message was getting a bit stale," she said. "You need a variety of different strategies. There isn't one silver bullet."

John Maxwell, a spokesperson for the AIDS committee, said the card has been redesigned since an earlier draft that Churchill saw - and now points out that the sex act in question, called felching, is risky.

Advertising agency Leo Burnett Canada designed the cards free of charge after holding focus groups with 18- to 25-year-old gay men who said they wanted "something that talked about HIV in a light-hearted way while acknowledging the risk," Maxwell said. "This card falls within the philosophy of risk reduction."

The bathhouse tours are "to provide men with information so they can protect themselves," he said. "A lot of men are curious. It can be intimidating if you don't know the layout and the culture. We feel it's better to provide people with information than to withhold it."

Since 1985, 15,696 people in Toronto have tested positive for HIV, almost two-thirds of all the cases in Ontario.

Toronto had 800 new HIV cases last year, up from 765 the year before.


This is a great, if horrifying, illustration of the analist acculturation process.

First of all, let's get our cast of characters straight:

AIDS Committee of Toronto (ACT) is an AIDS Service Organization (ASO), which is charged, among other things, with preventing new HIV infections. Sixty percent of its funding comes from taxpayer dollars;

Barbara is an official of the Toronto Public Health Dept;

Richard is an outraged gay businessman who used to be on the board of directors of ACT; and

Leo Burnett Canada is an ad agency which conducted HIV / AIDS focus groups and fashioned some obscene playing cards -- free of charge.

Now, one of the cards fashioned by Leo Burnett Canada illustrates an act called "felching."

About which Barbara says, "that would be difficult to make safe. There are some sexual activities that it is impossible to make safe, but very few."

Is she right?

It's complicated.

Felching is a two part process.

In part one, a top fucks a bottom, and, having ripped the delicate tissues of his anus and rectum to shreds, proceeds to ejaculate in his ass.

Or, to be more exact, into his bloodstream.

That's unsafe -- to put it mildly.

In part two, however, a third party -- neither top nor bottom -- puts his mouth to the bottom's asshole, and sucks out the top's ejaculate. A

nd of course shit and rectal secretions and so forth.

Doesn't that sound like fun?

Actually, however, it's not particularly unsafe -- if we define "safe," as we're supposed to, as risking HIV infection.

It's no more unsafe than being the "receptive partner" in oral sex to ejaculation.

Don't get me wrong.

Is sucking cum, shit, blood, etc. out of a stranger's asshole liable to make you very sick?

Yes.

Is it liable to give you HIV?

No.

In theory it could.

But in my view, given the fragility of HIV, it's not likely.

It's roundabout.

If you want HIV, the best thing to do is follow the example of a gay luminary like Andrew Sullivan:

Put your butt in the air, waggle it about, and say, Oh please sir, fuck me.

Please.

Now, Barbara also says felching is a "sexual activity."

Is it?

No, not the actual felching.

Not unless you define sex as eating shit.

Which apparently, AIDS Committee of Toronto does.

Richard, a putative gay man, and to his credit, is upset by it, but he's probably anorectophobic and shit-phobic too.

Hopefully ACT and the Toronto Public Health Department can arrange some taxpayer-funded counseling to bring him back in line with his culture.

In addition to providing illustrations of felching and other fun stuff, ACT, funded by Canadian taxpayers, is hosting tours of two bathhouses for 18- to 25-year-old gay and bi men.

The committee is also hosting "Virgin Tours" of two Toronto bathhouses this Sunday for "curious bathhouse virgins," aimed at 18- to 25-year-olds.

ACT's reasoning is that it's important to expose these young guys to "the layout and the culture."

Well, those tours are certainly doing that.

Richard's not happy:

But bathhouses are rampant with drugs, particularly crystal meth, which encourages unsafe sex, Richard said.

"If I'm in a bathhouse, I'm 18 and high, I'm likely not going to make a conscious decision to have safe sex," he said. "And since when did the AIDS committee become agents for selling bathhouses?"

Good question.

Barbara's response -- and I have to admit, her reasoning escapes me -- is that people do drugs in all sorts of places.

Well, if that's the case, and based on ACT's rationale for taking these gay kids to the baths, one could certainly argue that ACT and the Toronto Public Health Department should be giving them illict drugs as well.

That way, there'll be no surprises for them when they return to the bathhouse.

They'll know the layout, they'll know the culture, and they'll know the drugs too.

As a matter of fact, there's no reason for ACT not to hire "escorts" from among Toronto's no doubt copious supply of male prostitutes to instruct the virgins in unsafe sex.

That way they'd be prepared for all the eventualities -- the layout, the culture, the drugs, the buttfucking, the rimming -- heck, even the felching.

Why not?

Why stop at half-measures?

Why not give them a truly complete education?

The clue to what's actually going on here is the ad agency and its focus groups.

Focus groups are used by ad agencies to figure out ways to sell folks things they don't need and don't want to buy.

Aided and abetted by the advertising guys, AIDS Committee Toronto and the Toronto Public Health Department are, in effect, serving as agents of analism, actively pushing young gay men to engage in promiscuity, anal penetration and various other fringe sexualities.

Such as felching.

I repeat, they're PUSHING.

The way dealers push crack.

As Chuck Tarver and I have noted before, these sorts of programs are a form of negative social engineering, which have the effect of supporting and reinforcing the two most dangerous MSM behaviors: promiscuity and anal.

That's why anal is so prevalent among MSM and becoming more so among heterosexuals.

Yet, as we all know, anal did not used to predominate among gay men.

What's needed is to

1. defund these "safer-sex" programs; and

2. inform the public, as the Surgeon General has said, that "anal intercourse is too dangerous to practice."

As Uganda demonstrated, you don't need focus groups to do that.

It's no different from telling people that some foods are unsafe.

You just tell them.


Robert Loring

Re: AIDS agency arranges bathhouse tours for virgins

12-4-2005

We'll in reading this I see the powers that be in Toronto have caved in. Gee, why am I NOT surprised?? Hey Barbara why not just sell drugs to the touring 18-25 year olds do and why your at it why not take them out onto the streets and introduce them to the local crack pushers so they can begin to form "personal relationships" with them. Oh yeah, and go ahead and march them down to the local Morgue so they can put a down payment on their coffins. Will that make you happy darlin'? Barb is obviously a pawn of the BFD death cult. She's not "educating" these young men. She's INDOCTRINATING THEM!! I'm not a prophet or fortune teller but I see awhole lot of death coming to Toronto's male population.

And as for this practice of felching........SICK!! Oh yeah! That's my idea of having good sex...sucking shit and cum out of another guys ass! I actually heard about this a few weeks ago when I came out of my cave for awhile and I went off on the person that told me about it because, personally, I think it's a disgusting and sick practice. BUT, it's not just happening among gay men my friends. Felching is being practiced among heterosexual threesomes also!! Two guys get together with a female. One butt-bangs the female and cums then the other guy suck out the fluids, cum, and shit out of the females ass. Sounds tasty doesn't it? Anyone for seconds??????

These programs spoken of in the above post ARE in FACT dangerous forms of social engineering that reinforce anal and promiscuity. They DON'T promote LOVE, bonding, equality, brotherhood, or loyalty. They DON'T promote LIFE. They DO, however, promote DEATH!! Such programs are NOT part of the solution but are part of the PROBLEM!

I've read some stuff (conspiracy theories....ahhhhh) that AIDS was engineered in labs and released into the population to "take out undesirables in society." I'm not into conspiracy theories BUT when I hear stuff like the government puppets are doing in Toronto it makes me go Hmmmm??. Anal equals AIDS and rest assured your government health officials and their social puppet agencies know it. The Bath House "tours" are really BFD indoctrination programs!!

It's said that our modern society is NOT the norm but the historical and traditional EXCEPTION. I'll be glad when that exception ends and human society returns to it's senses and starts to follow the traditional and historical norms again because modern society seems fairly SICK to me right now. Just when I think I've heard it all along comes something else even more insane! You know we used to lock away the PSYCHOTIC elements in our society but, alas, no more apparently. Now ANYTHING goes no matter how ridiculous, insane, or sick it is. That's a reflection not only on Barbara, her agency, and the BFD but on ALL of us who dwell on this planet. How SICK is human society going to get before we all succeed in killing ourselves??????

Myself, coming from a spiritual perspective, I believe all human life is SACRED. The BFD and it's pawns apparently stand in opposition while believing life is CHEAP and expendable. Their motto seems to be "if it feels good DO IT no matter how SICK or GROSS it is." Or, better yet, their motto seems to be "Die! Die! Die!!" The BFD is a DEATH CULT and if not a cult then it is most certainly a DEATH MOVEMENT. It promotes 5 minutes of pleasure but doesn't warn you that the end result of that 5 minutes of pleasure will be a longgggg and slowww death.

AIDS prevention is NOT rocket science is it? I don't think you have to have a Phd or be on par with Einestein to get the point. It boils down to ANAL=AIDS. So if you don't want AIDS then don't butt-bang other people and don't let them butt-bang YOU! Just say FUCK NO!! If you want to maintain your self esteem and sense of masuclinity then do the same. Anal will kill you physically (that's the LAST result) but before it does that it will kill you PSYCHOLOGICALLY and SPIRITUALLY! You will live with your own psychospiritual death right up until the time of your physical death. That's HELL folks!! Your physical death will actually be a LIBERATION from your psychospiritual HELL.

Gay men did not used to pump each other in the ass for sexual pleasure. It was considered the ULTIMATE DEFEAT of the ENEMY! Those calling themselves "gay" today are NOT gay at all. They are SICK PSYCHOS!! Why would anyone want to live a life of defeat and humiliation that is constant and that is enhanced everytime they get a butt-bang job? GAY men need to return to really being GAY and that means NO more butt-banging!! Frot is the NORMAL gay men behavior for sexual pleasure. Butt fucking is NOT!! I hope Bill's post above opens some of your eyes as to what we are up against. We sit in our ivory towers hiding like scared dogs while the BFD promotes and carries out it's agenda of indoctrination and death.

Sir Robert


Bill Weintraub

Re: AIDS agency arranges bathhouse tours for virgins

12-4-2005

Wow Robert!

Thank you.

We sit in our ivory towers hiding like scared dogs while the BFD promotes and carries out it's agenda of indoctrination and death.

That's just the truth.

They've got the money, they've got the power, they have an agenda, and they're moving on it.

We are, in my view, steadily losing ground.

If I could get you guys to donate, and on a consistent basis, we could turn that around.

Because we have the truth.

And there's no ally more powerful than truth.

But it is impossible, as I'll talk about in a moment, when we're facing not just mass media and pop culture, but these "respected" institutions with budgets that collectively run into the tens of millions of dollars, to advance.

Not, at least, with no money.

Now -- I wrote the rest of this post before Robert had posted, and I don't want to distract from his words.

Because they're important and they bear re-reading.

But I do want to look at what was actually done to or at least planned for these alleged "curious bathhouse virgins," 18- to 25-year-old gay and bi men, in the name of "HIV prevention."

Suppose, for a moment, that you're a 22-year-old gay guy who's never been to the baths.

Why haven't you gone?

You live in Toronto and these fleshpots, these gardens of earthly delight, are virtually at your doorstep.

Why haven't you taken the plunge?

Well, chances are you're concerned about disease, promiscuity, and drug use.

Why do I say that?

Because I never went to a bathhouse.

In all my years in Boston, NYC, and the Bay Area -- I never went.

Why?

Because I was concerned about disease, promiscuity, and drugs.

I didn't want to put my tender young self in an environment where such were rampant.

Nor did I want to be a piece of meat in a tiled stall.

And because, fortunately, when I was a young man in Boston and NYC, there were NO AIDS SERVICE ORGANIZATIONS.

Thank heaven.

So I never had anyone say to me, Gee Bill, we'd be glad to show you the culture and the layout -- so you'll feel more comfortable going to the baths.

Why on earth would we want these guys to feel more comfortable about going to the baths?

When the best advice we can give them is: STAY AWAY.

Now, who is offering to acquaint them with "the culture and layout" of the baths?

AIDS professionals.

And here I repeat my warning against "professionalism."

The AIDS Service Organizations (ASOs) are tremendously respected in the gay male community because they're viewed as "professional."

They're the one community institution which is "professional."

The bars aren't.

The clubs aren't.

The bowling and softball leagues aren't.

Not even the gay churches, on the whole, are "professional."

But the ASOs are staffed by people with degrees.

Which means, to the average gay man, that they're OBJECTIVE.

That you can TRUST THEM.

But you can't.

Because there's a huge difference between a degree in medicine or epidemiology, and one in social work or sociology.

Social work and sociology suffer from tremendous CULTURAL BIAS.

Which is why sociology is termed a SOFT science.

It's not objective and I don't think it ever will be.

The decisions by these AIDS professionals to commission a set of obscene playing cards illustrating "sex" acts and to give tours of the bathhouses are VALUE-DRIVEN.

Fact is, there are degreed professionals working for evangelical organizations like Focus on the Family who, if they had occasion, would commission playing cards extolling hetero marriage and take guys on tours of fundamentalist mega-churches.

Nevertheless, and this is what is pernicious, the young gay guy is now faced with an alleged "professional," who, with all the unction of the expert, is offering to usher him in to the baths.

Who could refuse such an offer?

Let's suppose that you've never been to the baths and your buddies have ragged you about it, and now they say, look bro, a professional, a "safer-sex" counselor from AIDS Committee Toronto will give you a guided tour.

"What are you afraid of?"

Remember the bullying techniques used by the analist in that yahoo group cited by Greg Milliken in the RAPE CULTURE message thread:

I've also run into a number of "total tops" who were babies about getting fucked. Something to do with the "bitch" role that they can't handle the idea of themselves being. That or they don't want to become "totally gay" by taking a dick up their ass. Get over it, get on your hands and knees and have some fun. Geezus.

"Don't be a baby"

"Get over it"

"Have some fun"

So you're a young gay guy, and you've resisted that peer pressure so far, and now along comes ACT and says, We'll take you by the hand and lead you through it.

Truly dreadful.

This is not professionalism, it's analism.

As Robert said, the ASOs are functioning as agents of acculturation, "helping" young gay men adjust to their roles as sexual consumers and sexual meat.

And they'll even give you a free set of playing cards illustrating all the "sex" acts.

So you can practice and learn.

These AIDS "prevention" institutions are NOT neutral.

They are analist -- they encourage men to participate in anal penetration and promiscuity.

And what's interesting is that they'll admit, when pressed by the Toronto Star, that there's a philosophy -- not science -- behind their actions:

"This card [illustrating felching]," says the ASO spokesman, "falls within the philosophy of risk reduction."

Philosophy is right -- it's a value system which says we support and de facto encourage guys to do anal and be promiscuous; that we support them in "sexual exploration"; that "it's all sex and it's all good"; and that we encourage them to *reduce* risk by using condoms.

The ACT spokesman may think that the philosophy is risk reduction, but actually the philosophy is multipartnered pansexualism, aka sexual promiscuity.

In this case sodomite sexual promiscuity.

And fact is, if you're a pansexualist, your only choice is risk reduction.

Because you can't escape risk if you fuck and felch and rim and suck.

But there's another philosophy out there -- it's called risk *avoidance.*

And if you're a gay or bi man, you can AVOID HIV entirely by not doing anal.

Just as you can avoid giardia and amoebiasis by not rimming and not felching.

That's our philosophy.

Is avoidance the better way to go?

Yes, because there's no risk, and, if you choose Frot, far greater pleasure for both partners.

And because instead of being degraded and demeaned by the act, men and their manhood are exalted by it.

Is ACT telling young gay men that they have that choice?

Not so far as I know.

Is ACT telling young gay men that the Surgeon General of their neighbor to the south says that "anal intercourse is just too risky to practice."

Obviously not.

The tragedy is that over the last twenty-one years, the gay male community has been inundated by this sort of "professionalism" from the safer-sex boyz.

The result has been, in the US, 500,000 gay and bi men dead from HIV and another 500,000 infected;

and 67% of all gay men infected with anal HPV, while the incidence of anal cancer has, of course, steadily increased.

And beyond the disease, has been the never-ending pressure and coercion to do anal and be promiscuous, the two most deadly and soul-destroying behaviors in the pack.

What's happened in that respect to the gay male community has been sad -- though not, it should be said, ineluctably so.

I've recently been re-reading a novel written in the early years of the 20th century by the great, if closeted, gay male author E. M. Forster, which contains this elegaic passage;

in which the protagonist, Rickie, who's involved in a "passionate friendship" with a guy at Cambridge, considers his future:

He was thinking of the irony of friendship -- so strong it is, and so fragile. We fly together like straws in an eddy, to part in an open stream. Nature has no use for us: she has cut her stuff differently. Dutiful sons, loving husbands, responsible fathers -- these are what she wants, and if we are friends it must be in our spare time. Abram and Sarai were sorrowful, yet their seed became as sand of the sea, and distracts the politics of Europe at this moment. But a few verses of poetry is all that survives of David and Jonathan.

"I wish we were labelled," said Rickie. He wished that all the confidence and mutual knowledge that is born in such a place as Cambridge could be organized. People went down into the world saying, "We know and like each other; we shan't forget." But they did forget, for man is so made that he cannot remember long without a symbol; he wished there was a society, a kind of friendship office, where the marriage of true minds could be registered.

"A kind of friendship office" -- it's a beautiful thought.

Of course "marriage of true minds" is a reference to Shakespeare's Sonnet 116, which begins, "Let me not to the marriage of true minds admit impediments";

and which continues: "love is not love which alters when it alteration finds..."

That is the ideal towards which Men who Love Men have worked for more than a century:

A Bond, a Marriage, of true minds, which is not altered by time or space.

What the ASOs are giving us, in the name of AIDS prevention, is a culture of whores and strumpets.

That's not right.

Again, here's what Robert said:

AIDS prevention is NOT rocket science is it? I don't think you have to have a Phd or be on par with Einestein to get the point. It boils down to ANAL=AIDS. So if you don't want AIDS then don't butt-bang other people and don't let them butt-bang YOU! Just say FUCK NO!! If you want to maintain your self esteem and sense of masuclinity then do the same. Anal will kill you physically (that's the LAST result) but before it does that it will kill you PSYCHOLOGICALLY and SPIRITUALLY! You will live with your own psychospiritual death right up until the time of your physical death. That's HELL folks!! Your physical death will actually be a LIBERATION from your psychospiritual HELL.

Gay men did not used to pump each other in the ass for sexual pleasure. It was considered the ULTIMATE DEFEAT of the ENEMY! Those calling themselves "gay" today are NOT gay at all. They are SICK PSYCHOS!! Why would anyone want to live a life of defeat and humiliation that is constant and that is enhanced everytime they get a butt-bang job? GAY men need to return to really being GAY and that means NO more butt-banging!! Frot is the NORMAL gay men behavior for sexual pleasure. Butt fucking is NOT!! I hope Bill's post above opens some of your eyes as to what we are up against. We sit in our ivory towers hiding like scared dogs while the BFD promotes and carries out it's agenda of indoctrination and death.

Robert asks: "Why would anyone want to live a life of defeat and humiliation that is constant and that is enhanced everytime they get a butt-bang job?"

That's a really good question.

The analists conceive of themselves as agents of liberation, but in reality they're agents of oppression -- and of SELF-oppression.

A self-oppression so profound that it produces spiritual desolation and bodily death.

I call upon you, both for your sake and that of your fellows, to resist.

To Fight Back.

To Save Your Life.

SAVE YOUR LIFE

PS

Please re-read Robert's post above -- it's important.


Greg Milliken

Re: AIDS agency arranges bathhouse tours for virgins

12-4-2005

Bill,

The group I was referring to was actually on MySpace, not yahoo!. I just thought I should clarify that for the sake of accuracy.

Greg Milliken


Bill Weintraub

Re: AIDS agency arranges bathhouse tours for virgins

12-4-2005

Thanks Greg -- it's dispiriting, though not surprising, to know the group is on MySpace.

Now guys, I just realized that in quoting the passage from E M Forster, I may have given some of you the wrong idea.

I want to correct that.

Here's the passage -- we're hearing Rickie's thoughts:

He was thinking of the irony of friendship -- so strong it is, and so fragile. We fly together like straws in an eddy, to part in an open stream. Nature has no use for us: she has cut her stuff differently. Dutiful sons, loving husbands, responsible fathers -- these are what she wants, and if we are friends it must be in our spare time. Abram and Sarai were sorrowful, yet their seed became as sand of the sea, and distracts the politics of Europe at this moment. But a few verses of poetry is all that survives of David and Jonathan.

"I wish we were labelled," said Rickie. He wished that all the confidence and mutual knowledge that is born in such a place as Cambridge could be organized. People went down into the world saying, "We know and like each other; we shan't forget." But they did forget, for man is so made that he cannot remember long without a symbol; he wished there was a society, a kind of friendship office, where the marriage of true minds could be registered.

What intrigues me in the passage are the references to David and Jonathan, the friendship office, and the marriage of true minds.

These speak to a high ideal of love between men.

But there's also a line which I realized when out of context may be discouraging to some of you:

"Nature has no use for us..."

The "us" here is without question Men who Love Men.

I don't know if Forster, writing almost a century ago, believed that -- I don't think so -- but what's important to understand is that

1. what we know now is that homosexuality is found throughout the animal kingdom and is, in that sense and all others, a part of nature and profoundly natural; and that

2. the person talking is Rickie, who, believing that there's no role for his sort of friendship, marries a woman, whom he thinks he loves, but who makes him miserable.

In truth, given what happens in the rest of the novel, the line should read "Society has no use for us" -- which was true, in a sense, in Forster's time.

Now, in the book, there are three other significant male figures and archetypes -- and please forgive me for making another list:

1. Gerald -- killed in a football match, he's in the mold of the Heroic Athlete.

2. Ansell -- Rickie's special friend, an artist and philosopher.

3. Stephen -- Rickie's half-brother, and the product of an illicit love.

Stephen is the novel's Parzival -- to use the phrase I often quote from Joseph Campbell, a "forthright, simple, uncorrupted, noble son of nature, without guile, strong in the purity of the yearning of his heart."

It's through Stephen that such salvation as the story offers emerges.

And that to me is Forster's message: that in doing what is natural to us, rather than what society expects of us, we find salvation.

Speaking for myself, and in the context of this site, in my own life what was natural to me were Frot, Fidelity, and Masculinity.

What my society expected of me, of course, were anal, promiscuity, and effeminacy.

And what I had to do was learn to be true to myself.

It took me a long time to figure out that my choices had been the right ones.

But they were and are.

So: Nature does indeed have a use for us.

If we will be true to ourselves: forthright, simple, uncorrupted, and strong in the purity of the yearning of our hearts.


Robert Loring

Re: AIDS agency arranges bathhouse tours for virgins

12-7-2005

"......noble son of nature....."

"And that to me is Forster's message: that in doing what is natural to us, rather than what society expects of us, we find salvation.

Speaking for myself, and in the context of this site, in my own life what was natural to me were Frot, Fidelity, and Masculinity.

What my society expected of me, of course, were anal, promiscuity, and effeminacy.

And what I had to do was learn to be true to myself.

It took me a long time to figure out that my choices had been the right ones.

But they were and are.

So: Nature does indeed have a use for us.

If we will be true to ourselves: forthright, simple, uncorrupted, and strong in the purity of the yearning of our hearts."

NOBLE SON OF NATURE!!

I like that term. It describes myself and I think many of us in many ways. I spend a lot of time out in the midst of nature hiking, etc. I enjoy simply going out into nature and communing with the Earth Mother, being a part of nature, and allowing nature to be a part of me. But, this is only one aspect of being a Noble Son of Nature.

The other aspect of being a Noble Son of Nature lies within many of us and it lays within the realms of our psyche. I think when many of us were young we did what was natural (ie: frot). I further think that the idea of being butt banged or butt banging another guy was foreign and repulsive to us. Why? Because frot came NATURAL to us whereas butt banging was deemed gross an UNnatural. It is no great secret that it is very common for boys to frot with each other. In fact, psychologists consider it normal as boys begin to explore theirselves and their sexuality. So recall when you were a boy and recall that during that time you frotted with other boys but there was not butt banging involved nor expected.

Then, when we learned of butt banging and we were conditioned to it as we entered the gay subculture of the BFD we had to leave what came NATURAL to us and be a part of something that was UNnatural for us. We stopped being true to ourselves. We stopped being ourselves. The BFD was attempting to change our natures at the expense of our own psychospiritual and physical health. I think there are many who know deep down within themselves that butt bang is UNnatural yet men continue to engage in it as a matter of acceptance among their butt bang BFD peers.

Then one day, in our various lives, something happened or clicked within us and we got out of the BFD and began to be true to ourselves again. We began to make the conscious choice not to submit ourselves to the dictates of the BFD and analists. We returned to being MEN. We returned to Frot, Fidelity, Masculinity....that which came and comes NATURAL to us! And it was in that return that we found our SALVATION! Once again we returned to being true to ourselves and said "to Hell" with the dictates of the BFD and the demands of those imprisoned by the mainstream gay culture.

We rediscovered that Nature DOES in fact have a place for us and that frot, fidelity, and masculinity were NATURAL while what the BFD promoted was UNnatural. We came to understand and know once again what we knew as boys. That is that we do what comes natural to us, that we must be true to ourselves first and foremost, that we must be simple and uncorrupted in our lives, and that we must be strong in purity of the yearning of our hearts.

So we began living our lives in what was natural for us. Then we moved into the BFD and discovered it was UNnatural for us. Finally, we returned to being what is natural for us because something deep within us told us anal is wrong and anal is also deadly and disasterous not only physically but also psychologically and spiritually. In short, we began as Noble Sons of Nature, then we got derailed and deceived, but in the end we returned to what we truly are, always have been, and always shall be. Noble Sons of Nature!! And in that, YES, Nature DOES have a place for us!!

And so we stumbled upon this site but I don't think it was by accident or coincidence. Spirit (however you conceive of Spirit or God) led us here and brought we who are the Noble Sons of Nature together. We who value frot, fidelity, and masculinity! We who are MEN before anything else! We who are living out in our lives the WARRIOR TRADITIONS!!

Sir Robert


Bill Weintraub

Re: AIDS agency arranges bathhouse tours for virgins

12-10-2005

Wow!!!

Thank you Robert.

Again, this is an important post by Robert which bears reading and re-reading.

I want to try to bring together some ideas from this thread and others.

1. Sons of Nature

Robert refers to Noble Sons of Nature, and I'll come back to the "noble" part at the end of this post.

For now I want to concentrate on the natural aspect of this.

We need to understand that cockrub -- cocktocock dick2dick cockrub Frot -- is a profoundly natural act.

And that buttfucking is profoundly, as Robert says, UNnatural.

Saying that of course utterly freaks the buttboyz out.

Which is good.

If it bothers the buttboyz, shitfairies, and bottoms-up-brigade -- chances are very very very very very very very very very very very good -- that it's TRUE.

So: Frot is a NATURAL behavior.

And when we're true to ourselves and our inner nature, we're also true to Nature itself.

Robert:

So we began living our lives in what was natural for us. Then we moved into the BFD and discovered it was UNnatural for us. Finally, we returned to being what is natural for us because something deep within us told us anal is wrong and anal is also deadly and disastrous not only physically but also psychologically and spiritually. In short, we began as Noble Sons of Nature, then we got derailed and deceived, but in the end we returned to what we truly are, always have been, and always shall be. Noble Sons of Nature!! And in that, YES, Nature DOES have a place for us!!

Right.

Nature does have a place for us.

But nature does NOT have a place for anal penetration.

Not if you understand the true nature of the anus.

This is from Greg Milliken in his post The Inner Sanctum:

The entire body is not an erogenous zone.

For example, if you were to rub someone's heart, the results would be painful and, likely, deadly.

If you thrust your penis into someone's kidneys, it will probably damage them, causing all kinds of pain.

And if you playfully bite someone's pancreas, they could get infected and die.

So what's important to note is that the sheet of skin that covers your body can be an erogenous organ. That is--stimulating it can result in pleasant sensations.

However, your internal organs are not part of your skin. Your heart, your lungs, your kidneys, your pancreas, and your anus are all internal organs--separate from your skin.

As such, they are all likely to result in unpleasant consequences--both immediate and long-term--if exposed to external factors.

Anal penetration hurts. It exposes you to life-threatening infections. It degrades the ordinary performance of the anus.

The body isn't an erogenous organ, the skin is. The skin on the penis is especially sensitive to stimulation. The anus is an internal organ that lacks sensory tissue. That makes sense, because it's not skin.

Again, the analists can't tell the difference. They can't pin it down.

Right.

As human beings we tend to think of the anal sphincter as something which exists to prevent our soiling our clothes or having a bowel movement during a business meeting.

Something, in other words, which we control and which is there for our convenience.

And of course other animals -- like dogs -- avoid soiling their dens.

But the anal sphincter is also there to keep "external factors" OUT of the anus, since those factors, in Greg's words "expose you to life-threatening infections [and] degrade the ordinary performance of the anus."

That's why penetrating the anal sphincter hurts.

The pain is there as a warning: DON'T DO THIS.

The analists devote a lot of time and energy to figuring out ways to subvert that warning.

And then they die.

Men who have sex with men need to recognize the true nature of the anus -- as Greg spells out; and they need to understand that they can't put themselves at eternal war with nature.

Because, as Robert says, "Anal is deadly and disastrous not only physically but also psychologically and spiritually."

2. Masculine Aggressive Energy

This is from Warrior Jedi in RAPE CULTURE:

We will stop the fouling of the apple [planet Earth] and bring in our masculine aggressive energy and ability of BINDING LOVE to save the planet.

"Masculine Aggressive Energy"

Really important.

And something else the buttboyz don't like.

For at least 40 years, and indeed longer, "masculine aggressive energy" has been denigrated, belittled, and shamed.

And that's been a disaster, both for the larger culture and for men who love men.

Men who Love need to develop a renewed and very clear appreciation of and indeed unabashed and outright admiration for Masculine Aggressive Energy.

NakedWrestler, whose most recent post is titled Fighting is Man, has that admiration and celebrates that energy in his life.

Here he's talking about training at a mixed-martial-arts / fight school:

The femaleness in you that you think you used to have drains away when you start to learn real male fighting stuff. It's like you come out to YOURSELF as a man by realizing that what makes you a man is not what makes your cock hard so much as the willingness to at least learn to fight. Going to the next step and doing fighting is the real treat. Fighting is man.

So NakedWrestler works to enhance his Masculine Aggressive Energy.

He acknowledges it and embraces it.

While without question the analists of the Buttfuck Dictatorship are afraid of that energy.

Everything they do is an attempt to destroy masculinity and to deride masculine aggression.

And they understand that Masculine Aggressive Energy is at the heart of Frot.

That's why barebackin buttboy Andrew Sullivan attacked us on effeminacy.

The BFD wants effeminacy to be enshrined, and masculinity denigrated.

NO.

NO.

NO.

Here's a thought excercise:

Can you imagine two effeminate men rubbing cocks?

No.

Doesn't work.

Frot celebrates our masculine aggressive energy.

That's what it is.

It's two guys being hard and getting off on each other's hardness.

On that frankly phallic expression of being a man.

Again, for decades, anything phallic has been attacked and denigrated.

But you can't do that and maintain a spiritually healthy culture.

Because Phallus is Manhood and Manhood is fundamental to Man.

Phallus is Manhood and Manhood is Man

Bill S, in his The Greatest Gift post, says that his Manhood "is the greatest gift God has given after life and, someday, immortality and eternal life through Jesus Christ."

And then talks about how the churches deny phallus, but have phallic symbols -- steeples -- on each house of worship.

That's what the Freudians called "the return of the repressed."

If you repress something really important -- like phallus -- it will return -- just in another form.

Again, it's a question of what's natural and masculine.

Here's Greg in his post Reflexive Thinking:

Masculinity is "natural to a man." What could be of more benefit to someone than doing what is absolutely natural to him? How can you argue that someone following his own nature is wrong or bad? You canít, and the [analists] canít. Thatís why their entire culture is based on the reflexive idea that anal knows best, if it didnít, nothing would make sense. In fact, nothing does in the analist world.

Masculinity is natural to a man.

Masculine aggressive energy is natural to man.

3. THE AGE OF WARRIORS

This is from Warrior Jedi, slightly edited:

Lots of warriors on this sites will come from various religious backgrounds some will have monotheistic (one god system) backgrounds like christians ... jews...or muslims, some will have polytheistic (more gods system) backgrounds like hindus or pagans...some will be free spiritualists and some again atheists and so on...

However what is important to know is that everybody CAN be part of the warrior movement...because

WHATEVER RELIGIOUS BACKGROUND WE HAVE

WHATEVER RACE WE ARE

WHATEVER LANGUAGE WE SPEAK

..

We aim to establish a new age: THE AGE OF WARRIORS

Right.

THE AGE OF WARRIORS.

That's a wonderful idea and goal.

An age in which masculine aggressive energy is respected and honored.

The Age of Warriors.

And to get to that new age, one of the things I've encouraged guys to do here is look to the past, and cultures of the past.

If you look, you'll always find the warrior and when you find the warrior, you'll find phallus and phallic celebrations of masculine aggressive energy: homosex and the warrior bond.

So whatever your own heritage, and whatever tradition appeals to you, you can find warriors among your antecedents.

I've talked a lot about the Greeks and I've also written articles about the Celts and the Sumerians.

But those are just three among hundreds.

For example, one warrior from the Philippines posted about

the mandirigmas who only wore a skimpy loincloth, some colorful armbands and a headband, rajah sandals, and only armed with a kris or a kampilan (two-pointed sword of the Philippines) and a shield.

We could talk about the Samurai, or the Vikings.

Or Native American cultures.

Robert points to warrior imagery in both the Old and New Testaments.

Certainly there's no tale of warrior love more compelling than that of David and Jonathan.

And they were real -- not mythic but real.

Further, homosex would have been very common in the Palestine of Jesus' era.

For one thing, the Greeks had been there for centuries.

And we know that the Jewish warriors who opposed the Seleucids in the 2nd century BC wore phallic amulets.

Yet, as Robert says,

Jesus the Christ had plenty of opportunity to condemn and teach against frot BUT the fact is He DIDN'T! In the story of the Centurion who came to Jesus and asked him to make his "slave" well, the original Greek term translated as "slave" really translates to "lover" and specifically "male lover." Jesus healed the slave/male lover of the Centurion. Jesus had the perfect example in this story to teach against same sex attraction as being wrong and sinful. BUT, Jesus did NOT take that opportunity to teach that same sex attraction was wrong or sinful!! Instead, Jesus blessed the Centurion and healed his male lover!! That act alone speaks volumes about same sex relationships!!

That's right.

Which is why, as Robert says, "an early Christian coming into the modern world might well even think that we modern Christians are a pack of apostates and infidels."

What does Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson have to do with Jesus?

Or the leadership in the Republican Congress?

The Republican Congress has refused to address anal penetration as a health issue even though the Surgeon General of the United States, who's charged with the public health, says it's a health issue.

Why?

Because it doesn't fit their agenda.

And their agenda is more important to them than the health of human beings.

That's not Christ-like.

4. NOBLE Sons of Nature

In Analism and the Debasement of Language, I talk about the relationship between Frot and character:

The mutual, phallic, genitality of Frot; the shared aggression, expressed through mutual phallic thrusting, of Frot; and the mutual exaltation of masculinity inherent in Frot is what produces the character elements we associate with the fully-realized Frot man: strength, decency, nobility, and caring.

..

Can we expect to see these attributes of decency, strength, caring, and nobility, in a man whose sexual life is spent in dominating, subjugating, and in fact brutally and thuggishly using his male partners as little more than sperm repositories?

Or in a man whose masculinity and genitality is steadily stripped from him in an act of debasement and effeminization which treats him as a pseudo-woman?

The answer in both cases is No.

The dysfunction that we see in so much of gay male life is a direct consequence of the centrality of anal penetration to gay male lives.

It is NOT possible, nor is it reasonable to believe, that the gay community can keep anal at the center of gay male practice and at the same time move that community in the direction [a recent commentator] says is needed:

The Man2Man Alliance gives a provocative introduction to men with a new vision of sex, a vision in tune with the historical emphasis on manly love between heroes and warriors. Theyíre into man on man mating, not just the rubbing of genitalia. And theyíre into love between men who are strong, noble, decent, and caring. These are ideas whose time has come.

  • "Manly love between heroes and warriors," he says.

    Love between heroes and warriors cannot be expressed in acts of domination and submission.

    That's not how it works.

    You cannot effeminize a man and then expect him to fight at your side.

    And no warrior culture does so.

    Nor would a hero brutalize his lover.

    Heroic Love, properly defined, is love between equals -- and that means between men who elect to bond phallically, phallically and faithfully, through Frot.

    PHALLICALLY.

    In a way which honors and enhances their Masculine Aggressive Energy.

    and FAITHFULLY.

    That's what it's about.

  • "Man on man mating," he says, "not just the rubbing of genitalia."

    He's correct that true love between men, the mating of man with man, is about more than genitals.

    But, as we've seen, the form taken by the physical expression of that love matters.

    The mating of man with man must be expressed by the mating of the male genitalia, the mating of our mutual manhood.

    Just as the mating of man with woman is expressed through the mating of male and female genitalia, so must the mating of man with man be expressed through the mating of the male genitals, what Don Frazer calls a quintessentially male intercourse: the joining of penis and testicles.

    That conclusion is inescapable.

    The alternative is to perpetrate an erotic and affiliational fraud every time two men "have sex" by treating the anus as a counterfeit vagina and the rectum as an ersatz womb.

    The results of so doing are dehumanizing, devastating, and, ultimately, deadly, for both partners.

  • "Love between men who are strong, noble, decent, and caring."

    That is indeed what we seek.

    And it's no accident that it's the Frot Movement which calls for the cultivation of these traits.

    You cannot build a community on raunch, kink, promiscuity, and sleaze.

    It cannot be done.

    Yet that's what the gay male leadership continues to want to do.

    That leadership is in denial about the realities of anal penetration: the dirt, the disease, the degradation.

    And a community cannot be built on denial.

We offer men a NEW way -- not more of the old, not more of the same.

We say that

Warrior Homosex is Heroic Homosex

Heroic Homosex is Warrior Homosex

If men are to regain their ancient and honorable identities as Warriors, they must return to an Heroic concept of sex between men:

One which is indeed decent, caring, noble, and strong.

Only then will Men who Love Men realize the true power of that Love;

and become a Force for renewal and rebirth in the human community.


So we have three elements:

Noble Sons of Nature

who by honoring their own

Masculine Aggressive Energy

will bring about

The Age of Warriors.

The mutual, phallic, genitality of Frot; the shared aggression, expressed through mutual phallic thrusting, of Frot; and the mutual exaltation of masculinity inherent in Frot is what produces the character elements we associate with the fully-realized Frot Man / Cock Warrior: strength, decency, nobility, and caring.

"Fully-realized":

In building this movement, we will encounter "men into Frot" who will seek to retain elements of the old analist hegemony -- the promiscuity, the effeminacy, and the fringe "sex" -- like anal and rimming and felching -- in their lives.

We cannot tolerate that.

As men come to us, we need to help those "men into Frot" become true Frot Men and Warriors.

Because many of these men will have been acculturated into analism and will have a hard time leaving aspects of analist culture behind.

  • Some will still be doing anal.

    They will come to understand that they should and need not.

  • Some will want to be promiscuous.

    They will come to understand that promiscuity is a bad choice.

  • Some will think effeminacy is amusing.

    They will come to understand that effeminacy is oppressive.

So guys will be supported in behavior which is Phallic, Masculine, and Faithful, while being strongly encouraged to give up behavior which is the opposite -- anal, effeminate, and promiscuous.

Only way to do it.

Robert says:

We began as Noble Sons of Nature, then we got derailed and deceived, but in the end we returned to what we truly are, always have been, and always shall be. Noble Sons of Nature!! And in that, YES, Nature DOES have a place for us!!

Robert's correct.

We all begin as Noble Sons of Nature.

And it's our task to recall our fellow men and brothers to their true masculine and warrior selves.

Far-fetched?

Pie-in-the-sky?

NO.

For millenia, men lived as warriors and followed a warrior code of honor, decency, strength, and caring.

For the past hundred years, we've lived under a social experiment in which the warrior code, masculinity, and manhood itself have been relentlessly attacked and denigrated.

The result among men who have sex with men has been the dysfunctional, anally-driven, promiscuous, effeminate, and disease-ridden "community" we see today.

We offer Men who Love Men a better way:




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