Shawn

Re: A Confirmation of Masculinity

12-7-2003

HEAR HEAR!!!

I agree totally with what you say, they are phonies. Anal sex is a perversion in every sense of the word. But i think that one reason there is so much opposition to frottage is because there is no money to be made. You don't have to buy condoms, lube, enemas, World AIDS day, AIDS prescription meds, lattes', gym memberships, designer clothes, and beauty products. Anal sex is much more marketable.

They wanna do whatever they want and have no consequences. Do the most disgusting acts possible, live feminine and degenerate lives, tons of sexual partners, and desecrate the masculinity that helped build our country. Then they wanna hide under the first amendment! We have to stop the exploitation and commercial sale of 'homosexual'.

Shawn

Bill Weintraub

Re: A Confirmation of Masculinity

12-10-2003

hey don and shawn

thank you for your posts

don is right that it's super important for us to emphasize the positive pleasures of frot

and shawn's right that it's wrong and dangerous to exploit sexuality for commercial gain

not uncommon, but not right either

as i've told you guys, some self-serving dope came onto this site, wanting to make money off of frot, and i told him to get lost

so now he's got his own site where he's putting forth the idea that if we -- or he -- makes frot commercial it will be more popular

that's truly dopey and a distortion of what i've said and shawn just said too:

that there are commercial and other interests, including condom and lube manufacturers, HIV and OTC pharmaceutical companies, sex clubs and circuit party venues, drug dealers, gay travel agencies and resorts, "safer sex educators," and ASOs, underwriting the continued cultural domination of anal sex

that doesn't mean however that we should emulate them or that it's in any way necessary to emulate them

the reason penile-vaginal sex is popular isn't because it's commercial or marketable

it's because it feels great and, under the best of circumstances, elevates the lives of the participants

so you could eliminate the hetero porn industry and soft core porn and Hollywood porn and Victoria's secret, etc etc -- and guys and girls would still have sex

the same is true of frot -- frot feels great and it enriches the lives of those who experience it

you don't have to turn it into a moneymaker

and the very great danger is that if you do -- since commerical interests care only about money, not the health or spiritual welfare of the people generating that money -- commerical interests will act to accelerate and institutionalize the promiscuous practice of frot and thus generate more disease

so: we support Fidelity and Frot, we're a non-commercial organization, and all of you should do all you can to prevent frot from going the route of anal -- which was commercialization followed by disease and death

Cockrub salesmen, dudes, don't rule

greg

Re: A Confirmation of Masculinity

12-13-2003

hi don

I want to add some words to perversion....

I had once a boyfriend not so long ago he was younger than me and he was heavily into beeing penetrated.

I was in love with him so i had no choice than to play the top part.

But at the same time i was trying to teach him about frottage wich he regarded as imature sex.

I remember one day when i told him about my love for him ......and the surprise i saw in his eyes.

And then this answer to me where he said to me half ashamed ....what are you doing "a man does not love a man"

And i was thinking,fucking hell,this guy tells me that it is not normal for a man to love a man but its normal for him that a man is getting it up the ass!

....so much to perversion of modern times....

greg

greg

Re: A Confirmation of Masculinity

12-13-2003

just to add.......

It didnt last long anyway!

greg

Bill Weintraub

Re: A Confirmation of Masculinity

12-13-2003

hi greg

as always, thank you for your posts

guys, i know that most of you experience a lot of pressure to do anal

and that many of you give in to that pressure

i've done anal too under the same circumstances

what isn't the same though is that when i did anal -- we didn't know about HIV

now we do -- and though it's hard to believe, thanks to the failed analist and condom campaign policies of the last 20 years, the number of people infected with HIV is higher than it's ever been -- not just in Africa, but in America and the UK too

so anal is riskier than ever

and that's true for tops too

especially if you're uncut or uncircumcised

we now know, thanks to a huge study done in India comparing infection rates in cut and uncut men, that uncut men are at far greater risk than circumsized men during vaginal sex and insertive anal penetration

that's one of the reasons, guys, that HIV prevalence is so low in most Islamic countries -- and in Israel

there are cultural factors at work, but there's also circumcision

so if you're a man into frot, getting involved with a guy who insists on anal is almost certainly going to be a dead end for you emotionally

as well as just plain deadly

there's no reason to do anal -- not ever

where would i be now if i hadn't told Brett right off the bat that i didn't and wouldn't do anal?

i'd be dead

because we would have almost certainly fooled around with anal -- even though Brett wasn't particularly into it -- because everyone did it

and Brett would have infected me

this is something the condom pushers and "safer-sex educators" refuse to acknowledge

AIDS is an anally-transmitted disease

you eliminate anal -- you eliminate AIDS

so eliminate anal from your lives guys

also men: you need to donate

right now donations have fallen into an abyss

i know it's Christmas and everyone has obligations

but what's it worth to you to stop being in these hellish situations where you have to choose between no sex and anal sex?

and what's it worth to you not to get infected?

not 5, or 10 or $20?

there's not one of you reading this message who couldn't spare that little bit of cash

you need to decide what your priorities are guys -- and you need to decide soon

because i cannot sustain these sites on good will and air

Nate

Re: A Confirmation of Masculinity

1-23-2004

Hi guys.

I am totaly new here so am just figuring out the POSTing method. I am new to this concept of frot, the emotional impact this has had on me remeinds me of the impact I felt when I first started to accept myself.

I was raised as a Jehovah's Witness, and thankfully I am out of that now. Because of my background, I have not had sexual experiences with guys. I look forward to a man2man experience now, moreso because I now know that I don't have to bend my buddy over, as it were.

Thoughts that were posted earlier in this thread I found very interesting.

The idea of the money to be made by marketing analism (that's a good moniker), is a very important concept.

There are a few other ideas, but my short term memory has lapsed.

Recently, before I found this group-and before I even knew about frot-I'd been thinking of AIDS.

I was thinking about AIDS in a global,universal,long term sense. If we consider AIDS as a tool of evolution, as any disease is a tool of evolution in varying degrees, how do we survive it? I was thinking that anal sex and other sexual behaviors that are risky need to be changed. Total lifestyle change.

In africa for example, what are the behaviors that are leading to infection? I really do not know what those are. Please educate me if I am wrong.

It is my thought that women and children are getting infected because of fathers' and spouses' sexual infidelity. So I am thinking that men bring it home to their wives, and due to a normal closeness in families, end up infecting their children.

I am not judging those men. I do not believe in the concept of sin. I do believe in the concept of responsibility for one's actions, especially to others.

How does this fit with evolution? People that want to survive, need to be aware of and change their behaviors. So this is also a social evolution as well.

No fear or guilt are needed. Just a willingness to survive by right action.

I think the same idea would work for the gay comunity. Those that want to accept responsibility and change will survive. I think this has to be each person doing it for themselves. This is not a change you can legislate onto people.

I'm going to stop here. Tell me guys, am I on crack here, or is there some validity to this line of thought?

Peace.

Nate

Bill Weintraub

Re: A Confirmation of Masculinity

1-23-2004

Hi Nate

Thank you for your post

I want to respond to just a few points:

1. "The idea of the money to be made by marketing analism (that's a good moniker), is a very important concept."

Yes. As I frequently say, sex and commerce do not mix.

AIDS was the result not just of anal sex, but of the commercialization of anal promiscuity in the form of bath-houses, back-room bars, sex clubs, and abundantly available printed and video porn depicting anal over and over and over and over again.

So we have to be very wary of anyone who wants to commercialize a sex act -- including Frot.

Basically, the only way you can make money from sex is through promiscuity.

And promiscuity spreads disease while destroying individuals, relationships, and souls.

2. re AIDS: "In africa for example, what are the behaviors that are leading to infection? I really do not know what those are. Please educate me if I am wrong.

"It is my thought that women and children are getting infected because of fathers' and spouses' sexual infidelity. So I am thinking that men bring it home to their wives, and due to a normal closeness in families, end up infecting their children."

Yes. That's basically correct.

In general, epidemiologists and AIDS anthropologists speak of two HIV epidemics: the "generalized," that is very widespread and primarily heterosexual epidemic in places like Sub-Saharan Africa (SSA); and the "discrete" epidemics among drug users and "men who have sex with men" which we see in America and many other Western countries.

In both cases, however, the culprit is promiscuity, or as James Chin, MD, MPH, Clinical Professor of Epidemiology, School of Public Health University of California, Berkeley, puts it, "risk behavior, risk behavior, risk behavior."

Thus, you can have a society, like the Philippines, which is relatively poor, but with a low rate of HIV prevalence -- because people aren't promiscuous.

So poverty and other social forces do not cause AIDS.

They exacerbate the impact of AIDS -- but they don't cause it.

Risk behavior -- that is promiscuity -- is the one necessary pre-condition for AIDS everywhere and anywhere.

3. "I think the same idea would work for the gay comunity. Those that want to accept responsibility and change will survive. I think this has to be each person doing it for themselves. This is not a change you can legislate onto people."

Here I don't agree.

While it's true that social change is a matter of individual choices, those choices can and are shaped by the cultural messages dessiminated through society.

And such messages can be, and routinely are, mandated and/or paid for by legislation.

In the case of HIV / AIDS, we've had about 20 years of what has turned out to be negative social engineering via AIDS Service Organizations (ASOs) putting forth a constant message of "Use a condom, every time, every time."

The result has been an increased prevalence of anal penetration among gay men, and the cementing of anal penetration with gay male identity.

(See Chuck Tarver's Missed Opportunity for a discussion of that issue.)

Those ASOs receive a great deal of money from the federal and state governments -- so in effect, we've had government supporting anal sex and promiscuity.

Thus, what happens legislatively and culturally really matters.

Think how different life would be right now if, instead of condom campaigns, ASOs had begun encouraging people right from the start, in 1984, to practice non-penetrative sex, especially frot, and to be faithful.

We'd live in a very different world -- with far lower HIV prevalence. (For the record, HIV prevalence is now HIGHER in the US than it was in the late 80s and early 90s -- clear demonstration that condom campaigns have failed.)

So cultural messages matter; and in our society, it usually takes government or very large "Non-Governmental Organizations" (NGOs) to put forth such messages effectively.

A case in point is smoking.

For years, smoking was glamourized in all the media.

Then doctors and other public health officials began questioning the messages we were sending about smoking.

The result, over time, was the anti-smoking campaigns we see today, which have been very effective in reducing the level of smoking and in reducing therefore levels of lung cancer and heart disease.

And which are a collaboration between NGOs like the American Cancer Society and the government.

Can something similar happen with anal penetration?

Yes, we've started the ball rolling, and it will inevitably pick up speed.

Notice that no one is talking about banning smoking, nor are we talking about banning anal sex.

But people are being discouraged from smoking, and smoking is now denigrated in society.

We can do the EXACT SAME THING with anal -- through well-disseminated cultural messages, discourage men from doing anal, and denigrate anal as a sexual choice.

Some men (and women) will still do anal, just as some people still smoke.

But the prevalence of the act will greatly decrease.

That's our challenge.

Are we up to it?

Yes -- the voices that have been collectively raised on this board and our sites are a powerful start "towards a new concept of M2M."

Robert Loring

Re: A Confirmation of Masculinity

4-4-2004

Seems to me to be very apparent that the analists loose their masculinity rather quickly and forget that they are men not women. And it seems to me that the analists think the only sex possible with another man is through anal penetration. I personally think anal robs one not only of their manhood but also robs them of their dignity. I myself do not engage in anal and I myself am proud of my masculinity. To even have someone try to rob me of my masculinity is cause for war and battle.

In my readings and studies I came across an interesting term. That term is "Cymbrogi". It is an old Celtic term meaning "brothers of the heart." Those of us who are into frot and not into anal are Cymbrogi. Frot establishes a connection of brotherhood between two men while anal sex, in my opinion, does not. I know when I engage in frot that there is a high psychospiritual connection established with my partner. It goes beyond sex or sexual acts because there is some sort of spiritual connection established with my partner. This connection lasts far longer than the sex. This connection helps both of us maintain our masculinity. Frot enhances our masculinity, whereas, I think anal sex actually destroys a male's sense of masculinity.

To be Cymbrogi, brothers of the heart, is to have a male to male relationship. It involves a higher connection between two men both on a psychological and spiritual level. Masculinity is enhanced instead of diminished and both men become empowered by each other instead of disempowered. Loyalty is created. Loyalty to one's "brother of the heart" and the feelings and respect become mutually shared. I see and experience this "Cymbrogi" with men who are into frot but I don't see this at all with men who are into anal. In fact, what I do see among the analists is pretty much just the opposite.

Frot men are engaging in something that is ages old (read the male history on this website and then do your own research if you don't believe it). Frot men promote each others manhood and masculinity rather than try to destroy it. Frot men do not seek to depersonalize their partners nor to rob them or themselves of their human manly dignity. Frot is, therefore, not only healthy physically but, in my opinion, it is also healthy psychologically and spiritually. It promotes the man rather than destroys the man.

Every man needs a Cymbrogi, a "brother of the heart", a "male soul mate." Men have a natural instinct to be close to other men. Men also have a natural knowing that being close to other men also enhances one's own masculinity. Men want to establish physical, psychological, and spiritual connection with other men. If this connection leads to frottage then the connection is only strengthened because frot does not depersonalize as anal does. And, even if this Cymbrogi connection does not lead to frot the connection is still there as "brothers of the heart."

Modern society has done much towards promoting the destruction of masculinity. What is attempting to be created is a gender neutral society. When a man is robbed of his masculinity he becomes inwardly frustrated and a whole host of psychospiritual problems result. I think as men we should be proud of our masculinity and not be ashamed of it. I think as warriors we should fight against the attempts to rob us of our masculinity and not be ashamed of our manhood and maleness. We were born men and we should be men and frot is historically and traditionally a part of manhood. But, society at large and the analist won't tell you any of this.

Find yourself a Cymbrogi, a "brother of the heart", and keep that relationship as one of equals. Enhance your and your partners masculinity and don't try to diminish it as the analists do. Stand up and fight as an honorable man and warrior against the BFD who insists we must engage in anal and become gender neutral. And most especially DO NOT be ashamed of your own manhood!! And, when you go looking for your Cymbrogi realize that "brothers of the heart" can be a million miles away from each other but that higher connection can still be established and maintained across great distances.

Sir Robert

Also by Don Frazer

The Romance of Frot

Also by Robert Loring:

We ARE Warriors

Brothers of the Heart

A Case of Rape

The Ultimate Defeat