Bill Weintraub

Re: My Journey to Frot

3-7-2007

Thank you jrocker.

Guys, I wrote to j privately, but I also want to take a look at his post on this board, because he brings up a lot of issues about Men, about sex between Men, and about the cultural messages which shape our thinking about that sex.

From my point of view, j has a lot of misconceptions about Men and sex, which is not surprising, because those misconceptions flow directly from the cultural messages he's heard all his life.

And let's be clear that cultural messages shape both desire and the way we experience that desire.

I know that people have a hard time with that idea, but it's self-evident, or with a little thought, becomes so.

For example, j refers to sex between men as "forbidden sex."

Why?

Because his culture tells him that.

Ted Haggard: sex between men is dark, repulsive and immoral.

But if j were an ancient Greek, he'd believe that sex between men was "good, a bringer of light, and morally desirable."

Plato: a male lover is "not less worthy of praise for his goodness than for his beauty."

Plutarch: a male lover is "a friend inspired by God."

To the Greeks, male-male sex was a social good.

And if j were a Greek, that's what he'd believe because that's what his culture would tell him.

This is NOT a question of genes or hormones.

It's a question of CULTURE.

Again, if anyone out there understands what I'm saying, please let me know.

And don't keep ignoring these requests for donations, because if you do I'll close the sites.

Here, I'll spell it out for you:

C-L-O-S-E

T-H-E

S-I-T-E-S

I've had it with writing for and HELPING people who don't appear capable themselves of either hearing or caring.

Anyways, let's take a look at j's post and what it tells us about what people have told him:

Wow. First let me start off by saying that finding this site is the end of a journey that I have been on for the past 7 years and that it answers so many questions for me.

Around the time I turned 15-16 I noticed that I started to become very attracted to guys. The strange thing is I know I wasn't gay because before then I was only interested in girls and my attraction to guys was more than an attraction. I was attracted to their masculinity; I was attracted to what it meant to be a guy;

Bill Weintraub:

Right.

That's what men are attracted to in other men -- their Masculinity.

As we've often said, what Men want in life is a Warrior brother -- they want a man who can be their buddy and FIGHT by their side.

And that's why they look for and are attracted to Masculinity in other Men.

Problem: the culture paints "men who have sex with men" as effeminate.

So it creates confusion and discord between what men need in another man -- and what they think they can find.

and I thought of our bodies than more than just a body but a work of art.

The problem was guys turned me on but I didn't know how to express that sexual attraction. I didn't think anal sex was a good thing because:

Bill Weintraub:

So right off we can see that when j thinks of sex between men, he thinks of anal.

Why is that?

Because of cultural messages.

Because that's what he's been told over and over and over again sex between men is.

And as we'll see, he has an erotic focus on men's asses and on their ass cracks.

Again, that focus is a result of cultural messages -- literally millions of jpegs out there presenting guys' butts as fit objects of desire.

Despite all those messages and the resulting focus, j's able to reason through that anal penetration doesn't make sense:

1- Men get sexual gratification from their penis not their anus. So I thought if I were to have sex with a guy I would not like to be a bottom cause that wouldn't please me sexually.

2- I also did not think I wouldn't to express my appreciation for man hood via anal sex because I wanted both me and my "partner" to experience sexual pleasure at the same time. During anal only one person can get sexual pleasure at a time.

3- I also didn't want to have anal because I do have a large penis so I did not want to hurt or damage the guy I would be with. I wanted to pleasure his body not hurt it.

Bill Weintraub:

This is another misconception, generated quite purposefully by the analists.

That the size of the penis governs whether injury will occur to the anally receptive partner.

NO.

Any penetration of the anus, even by a finger, always results in some damage to the delicate mucosal lining of the anus and rectum.

There's no truly safe way to penetrate the anus and rectum.

We talk about that in an anus is not a vagina.

And I encourage everyone to read that article.

In the end I settled within myself that when I do experience forbidden sex

Bill Weintraub:

Here we have the term "forbidden sex."

It's forbidden by the religious right, and also by heterosexism, which says that "real men" don't have sex with other men.

That's the cultural message.

And it's WRONG.

Male-male sex is not "forbidden sex."

Men have had sex with men since the beginning of time.

It's a natural, normal, and very common male activity.

Among other mammals, we know that same-sex sex and homosocial living arrangements are the rule -- not the exception.

Most mammals have heterosex just a few times in their lives -- just for mating.

Whereas there's a lot of same-sex activity between them.

Has that been true of humans historically and cross-culturally?

YES!

Some articles which discuss these issues:

Frot among the animals;

Crimes against nature

The Power of the Masculine.

And it's important for j and everyone else to get some understanding of these terms:

heterosexualization

natural masculinity

sexual orientation

with a guy it would be anal and I would be top. This seemed to be the only option.

Bill Weintraub:

Again, we can see how cultural messages which present anal as the alpha and omega of male-male sex have shaped j's thinking about his "options."

During my exploration phase I did experience a frot experience but I didn't know that's what it was. During high school I played basketball and I had a team mate sleep over one night. At one point my friend went to the kitchen to get a bag of popcorn. We were both in the kitchen and he was looking through the cabinets for the popcorn and gave up saying he couldn't find the popcorn. While my mate (who I have never been sexually attracted to) was facing the cabinet with the popcorn for some reason I came up from behind him and pressed my cock against his butt crack, I then thrusted by reaching the popcorn with my tip toe. My dick was clearly hard and I know my friend felt my cock. It felt so good and I was scared that he knew what I did. I gave him the popcorn and returned to what I was doing. While I was doing what ever it was I was doing I was thinking to myself damn I don't know what that was but it feels so good, something inside me said do it again. So with my friend still in the same spot I went over and did it again. I think he liked it but we never said a word about it to each other again. After finding this site I will always be wondering how we probably would have been great frot brothers.

Bill Weintraub:

As I told j, the problem with the story he's recounted is that it's not about Frot.

What he experienced was "frottage" = sexual rubbing.

Frot is phallus on phallus sex.

The definition of Frot is very specific:

FROT

And there's a reason it's specific.

Because we don't want guys confusing erotic rubbing with phallus on phallus sex.

Phallus on phallus is genital-genital sex

which is true sexual intercourse.

Also after that experience I thought of a theory that there is an unwritten unspoken mutual attraction between straight guys,

Bill Weintraub:

Here j's reflecting the culture's dichotomy between "straight" and "gay" -- a dichotomy which is false.

He's right that there's a mutual attraction between GUYS -- ALL GUYS --

but it's only unwritten and unspoken in cultures like our own.

In most cultures, it's the norm.

Again, phallic sex between men is normal, natural, and COMMON.

we love women but there is something an occasional intimate contact with another guy can give us that a woman cant. That contact I don't know what it is but its more than sexual, its more than love.

Fast Forward a few years in college, because of the main stream idea of how guys express their sexual attraction to each other I was determined to find a guy to have anal with just to see if I liked it. I did meet a guy, exactly what I like in a guy. Straight acting, nice muscles not over the top but toned. And he had the sweetest ass.

Bill Weintraub:

"sweetest ass"

Again, j is confusing an interest in Men with an interest in asses.

That is COMPLETELY cultural;

and a result of the unrelenting analist propaganda which has flooded the culture since 1975.

That propaganda is literally older than j is.

It's all that he knows.

So: as he describes in his post, all the cultural messages he's received about sex between men talk about anal.

Asses.

But as he also noted, the anus is not a genital organ.

It can't generate erotic energy.

Only the genitals can generate erotic energy.

I told j that he needs to stop focusing on men's asses.

And to understand that such a focus is a response to analist cultural messages.

And I can't emphasize that too much.

When I was growing up, in the 50s and 60s, such messages were basically non-existent.

If you look at what little beefcake was out there, in magazines like Athletic Model Guild, it emphasized frontal shots -- barechested guys in jeans, shorts, jocks, and posing straps.

Very little attention was given to the ass.

And that's because there was no erotic focus on the ass.

Most sex was either JO, Frot, or oral.

Today, if you go not just to a porn site but to a hook-up site like the one I describe in The Metrics of Analism, most of the profiles include ass shots.

On many, that's the only pic -- the guy's ass.

Also, on that particular site, photos of cock are rated XXX and not visible to non-subscribers.

But asses are readily visible to any visitor.

That sends a huge message about What Sex Is.

But the message is wrong.

This is What Sex Is.

We got to talk about sex with another guy and he told me he wasn't into anal and only hand jobs and blowjobs. I thought ok I always wanted to suck a dick and get sucked by a guy.

During our exploration session I kept thinking how I wanted to just feel this guys body and have him open his legs and let me lay on him and rub my dick against his dick and his abs, all the while I am kissing his lips his neck his ears and chest. I also got a look at his ass and I was thinking men I don't want to penetrate it I just want to rub my dick between his crack, the top of his ass and his back.

I didn't tell him what I was thinking cause I thought he would think it was strange. Hell even I thought it was strange.

Bill Weintraub:

It's not strange.

The basic impulse -- to go dick2dick -- is there.

But j's mind has been fucked with by analist propaganda.

And again, he talks about his buddy's ass crack.

Now guys, it's not that rubbing in an ass crack is "bad."

But what's striking is that j keeps mentioning it.

When I was his age, I never thought about guy's asses.

My erotic focus was cock2cock.

But of course I hadn't grown up under a barrage of buttporn.

After that experience I started to struggle again about why I was attracted to men and what could I do with them sexually that would both give us pleasure, full body contact and it didn't involve anal sex. I kept coming back to the only solution ANAL

Two days ago I got an email concerning frot and I feel as though my world is complete. This is exactly what I am looking for when I taste that forbidden fruit.

Bill Weintraub:

Again, j refers to sex between men as as "forbidden fruit."

It's not.

And thinking it is will do j a lot of harm.

But it's certainly a common thought in our culture.

I don't know when I will experience a frot session because I have had limited sexual experience with guys and girls but I am exited about finding a frot brother who understands what this is truly about. We can be men but occasionally in the confidence of each other lay down the manly act

Bill Weintraub:

Again, j has a huge confusion here.

He thinks that to be sexual with a Man requires giving up Manliness.

NO.

Frot is Manly and Masculine.

Which is what ALL sex between MEN should be and can be.

There's NO conflict between BEING a Man, and having SEX with a Man.

That's why we're the Man2Man Alliance.

Not the half-man or pseudo-man or sorta-man 2Man Alliance.

Man2Man.

You're a Man.

So's your male sexual partner.

Being with another man *phallically* does not make either of you less than a Man.

To the contrary: it exalts your mutual Masculinity.

But j thinks that he has to in some degree give up manliness to be with a man -- because that's what he's been taught.

and hug, kiss, feel, and grind on each other.

Bill Weintraub:

Right.

Doing those things will not in any way make you less than Manly.

The idea that sex with a Man makes you less than a Man is analist.

Through and through.

I commend your website and your efforts I hope u never stop spreading the words because I know there are millions of boys, guys, and men out there who are struggling the way I was.

Bill Weintraub:

That's certainly true -- there are a lot of guys out there struggling.

Who've been the victims of a lot of propaganda:

• analist propaganda -- sex is about asses;

• religious right propaganda -- sex between men is forbidden;

• heterosexist propaganda -- it's not "manly" for a guy to get it on with a guy.

J too is a victim of that propaganda.

And I've told him so.

But realistically it will be very difficult for him to overcome that propaganda and those cultural messages, which are ubiquitous, on his own or just by visiting this site.

He needs far more support than that.

I thank j for his post.

I remind the rest of you that

1. We need to reach all the "millions of guys and men out there who are struggling the way j was" and is.

2. And that given the extent to which their minds have been poisoned, the task of helping them is huge.

This is something Robert Moseley said in January:

After going through several gay web sites I have up to now found virtually nothing about frotbrothers. Oh yeah I've found fistfucking, blood drinking and even beastiality! But as of now nothing about the frot movement. There is a lot of work to be done and I am aware of the enormity of the task to be done. A major factor is attitude. An attitude of i don't give a damn is what is causing the plague of AIDS to spread. There is no empathy or caring.

That's right.

And given the enormity of the task, the time to get started on it is NOW.

Not tomorrow, and not the day after.

STOP DIDDLING, STOP DITHERING, STOP PUTTING THINGS OFF.

For one thing, because as I said at the beginning, my patience with you has worn really thin.

You need to start donating and otherwise being involved.

If you don't, I WILL CLOSE THESE SITES.

Because there's no point to keeping them open.

I care about what happens to j and the guys like him.

I HAVE TO SEE THAT SOMEONE ELSE CARES.

And more than just someone.

I have to see that a lot of you care.

Because that's what it will take.

FIGHT BACK.

DONATE.

Bill Weintraub

© All material Copyright 2007 by Bill Weintraub. All rights reserved.

jrocker

Re: My Journey to Frot

3-16-2007

thanks for clearing up my post Bill and in the process you have cleared up alot of things in my mind.

I have always thought of male to male sexual contact in any shape or form as FORBIDDEN becuase in our culture it is close to unacceptable for males to hug each other.

In our culture males have to show affection or appreciation by pushing or rough housing or calling each other names. Even those avenues of contact are frowned upon. Hence in our culture the only widely accepted form of male contact is a hand shake.

I also refer to male sexual contact as forbidden fruit becuase it is a fruit that many males have tasted or would like to taste and those who have tasted would like to make it known that they like it but for cultural reasons they can not.

If they express their love of this type of contact with another male they would be branded all the defamatory homosexual adjectives in the book and becuase they know they are not these things, they will just keep quit and eperiance males secretly or surpress their desire.

To add to my point of male to male sexual contact being totally social unacceptable and forbidden. Have you guys noticed that female to female sexual contact is more socially acceptable. Even female to female admiration is more acceptable than its male counterpart. I hear females all the time stating that another female is attractive but if a guy says, "hey that guy over there is very handsome." You know how others around him would react.

If you stay up late at night and watch those Girls Gone Wild Commercials you see females kissing and rubbing all over each other and nobody blinks twice about it, but if it were guys doing the same thing thats another story

I found your theory about my focus on asses very profound. Its very possible thats the reason I find a guys butt sexually appealing, I have been cultured that way but my natural insticts tell me that anal penetration is not sexually gratifing.

Also I would like to make it clear that I am not obsessed with mens buttocks but it is a part of the male body I find attractive. Hell what I am talking about? I find males attractive from head to toe, from the sound of our deep voices to the way we walk to the types of underwear we wear. I am attracted to everything male and alot of the time my attraction isnt sexual its more of admiration.

In the end I am very happy that I found frot and frottage but at the same time it brings on a new fustrastion. Even while I was struggling with my sexual identity I knew what ever I was feeling was not immoral, it was not my choice, and god was not going to bannish me to hell for it but everytime the issue of male to male sex is being discussed that would be the mood of the conversation. I am fustrated becuase I know the truth but I also know society would not listen to me, even those who would agree with me would agree with me in secret. The Human need to conform will be my biggest enemy.

Bill Weintraub

Re: My Journey to Frot

3-17-2007

Hi j

Thank you for your reply.

j, all the things you say about the barriers to men being men with each other in a natural and human way are more or less true.

And you add:

I am frustrated becuase I know the truth but I also know society would not listen to me, even those who would agree with me would agree with me in secret. The Human need to conform will be my biggest enemy.

Society will listen to you j.

If you make the effort.

All human beings, regardless of when they're born, are faced with problems not of their making but which they must confront before they can be fully -- human.

That's the theme of the hero-myth whether it's Sumerian or Polynesian or American Indian or East Indian or Greek or Germanic or Celtic or African -- doesn't matter where the hero's from or what his name is, he faces the same problem.

And what the hero myth comes down to for Men is this: there's a monster and he has to kill that monster before he can be a Man.

In the movie 300, the boy Leonidas is sent on a sort of Spartan vision quest in which he must kill a wild animal.

That's a common warrior ritual and requirement.

Now: You've been born in a time and place when there are no more wild animals to kill.

So your problems are more complex.

Because your society will tell you you're a Man by virtue solely of age -- and sleeping with a woman.

And that's false.

j, when I was your age I was faced by my own monster.

We can call it homophobia, but it was all the lies told about gay people -- men and women -- lies which on the whole we no longer hear today, but which went on non-stop, 24 / 7, for years.

I had a choice:

I could confront those lies, and by so doing hope to grow into something resembling a man;

or I could cower in a closet for the rest of my life.

I chose the former -- and survived.

Most gay-identified men of my generation chose the latter;

most of them died of AIDS, much of which was complicated by substance abuse.

That's what happened.

j, you say, society wouldn't listen to you, and those who did agree would agree in secret.

But it's always like that.

Always.

I often use this model from Natan Sharansky, the famous Russian dissident, who spent years in the gulag for opposing the Soviet system.

He says that society is made up of three groups:

1. The true-believers -- for example, communists or fascists; who, in our case, are

• the analists, who believe that all men who have sex with men are "gay" and do anal;

• the heterosexists, who believe that real men don't have sex with other men; and,

• the religious fanatics, who believe that sex between men is forbidden;

2. The dissidents -- in our case, a relative handful of people who know and understand that sex is about genitals, not anuses, and that phallic sex between men is normal, natural, and common;

3. The doublethinkers. These are the vast majority of the society. They don't agree with the ideology of the true believers but they go along to get along -- basically, they're afraid to confront the regime.

The number of dissidents is determined by the price of dissent.

The higher the price of dissent, the fewer the dissidents.

So it's a kind of Catch-22.

The number of dissidents would be higher -- if the price of dissent -- were lower.

But it won't come down by itself.

The only way to bring it down -- is to increase the number of dissidents.

Right now the price of dissent in our little corner of the world is high.

So there aren't many dissidents.

YOU, j, can change that.

As a matter of fact, j, ONLY you -- working with your peers -- can change that.

No one will change it for you.

The true believers won't change it for you -- they want the price of dissent to be high.

And the doublethinkers won't change it for you -- because they're cowards.

Only YOU can change it.

You do that by DISSENTING.

And by AGITATING.

Frances said to me in an email that

I am heartened by whoever sent jrocker an email. He didn't have to stumble onto your site like most of us have. A whole lot of emails need to go out. A whole lotta guys need to go to Cockrub Warrior College and get a real education.

j -- have you thanked the person who sent you an email?

And how many emails of your own have you sent out?

One?

Ten?

None?

It's like Frances says:

"A whole lot of emails need to go out."

"A whole lotta guys need to go to Cockrub Warrior College and get a real education."

j -- how many guys will you send to Cockrub Warrior College?

j -- when I came out as a "gay man" -- today I would just say as a MAN -- in 1972, it was because I understood I had nothing to lose.

If someone couldn't accept me as a Man who Loves Men -- that was no loss to me.

j -- how many good buddies do you have?

Ten?

Suppose you tell all ten of them about the way you feel.

And nine of them never speak to you again.

So what?

What you've lost is nine -- losers.

What you've gained -- is one TRUE friend.

That's how it is.

You say, "The Human need to conform will be my biggest enemy."

That's true.

But you also have a powerful ally.

TRUTH.

There's no ally more powerful than Truth.

And you have another ally:

The male need to be a MAN.

So j -- you need to speak out.

And you need to DONATE.

Which so far as I know you haven't done.

That's no good.

You need to donate $20 per month for the next two years.

That's what you need and what we need.

Right now we have a tiny group of devoted donors who are keeping this site and this Alliance alive.

That's why the site was here for you -- because of those donors.

You have a moral obligation -- no question about it -- to make sure that the site is here for the NEXT GUY who needs to see it.

What we need is a hundred guys donating $20 a month.

That's not a lot of money.

But it would get us there.

You have to understand the vast amounts of money raised by the churches and the AIDS Service Organizations and by all the various buttboy enterprises.

That's what we're competing against.

Yet we have the TRUTH and we have guys willing to speak it.

So:

I went to see the movie 300 twice.

I never do that -- I hardly ever to go to any movie.

But I went to this movie a second time because I wanted to verify what I'd seen the first time.

I felt sad on the third day, knowing that I couldn't go again.

Having had a glimpse, on the screen and in my many books, of all that had been taken from me -- and which I could never recover.

I'm now 58 -- soon to be 59.

If I lived 20 more years might I begin to see the restoration of the Warrior Ethos?

Maybe.

But I'd be far too old to partake of it.

What's going to happen to you j?

You're 23.

No doubt 58 sounds very distant to you.

It's not that far away.

If you do nothing, you'll reach that distant shore --

and it'll be just as empty as the one you're standing on now.

I've had some companions on my journey.

Men who've believed as I do.

Will you have companions j?

Anything -- and anyone -- worth having, you're going to have to fight for.

And that will mean disagreeing with -- and often being disagreeable to -- the crowd.

That's how it is.

In my view, first of the gay movement, and now of the Frot Movement, participation is not optional.

You have to participate.

I call that "Living the Life of your Time."

Your time is whatever it is.

This isn't the Middle Ages and it isn't ancient Sparta.

It's your time and the battles you face are unique to it.

Leonidas recognized that the Life of his Time required that he make a stand at Thermopylae.

So he did.

And now he's a hero -- for all time.

Of course he got killed.

But if he hadn't made that stand, he'd have spent the rest of his life as a coward and a slave of the Persians.

Thinking about what he might have done.

And who he might have been.

Bill Weintraub

© All material Copyright 2007 by Bill Weintraub. All rights reserved.

Leonidas
or some other Spartan hero