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Fight the Fight Now
5-19-2011
Intro Note from Bill Weintraub
A few days back the Alliance received a donation via US mail from Mike.
With a brief note saying "Keep up the good work. It has helped me enormously."
And an email address.
I sent off a thank-you to the email address -- and this was Mike's reply:
Fight the Fight Now -- Part I
5-19-2011
Hey Bill,
Thanks for getting back to me. Again, you have created a great site and
you are to be commended for all the hard work pulling it together.
A little about myself:
I came across your site around 3 months ago, after hearing about frot and
doing a search.
I am 57 years old, happily married for 30 years with 4 adult children. Ever since
I discovered girls in the 6th grade, I've been attracted to them. Nothing turns
me on more than a wet warm pussy and big tits. However, ever since I was
a kid I've been turned on by guys with big muscles. My older brother was a
bodybuilder as a teenager and I can remember going in the basement watching
him work out, sometimes in just his white briefs, and me getting hard as hell.
He used
to flex in a mirror and he was unbelievable. Just a mountain of muscle. I just
couldn't get enough of watching him and he liked all the attention his little brother
gave him. So, naturely, I wanted to be just like him. I started lifting in the 8th grade
and went from 135 to 175 lbs at 5ft10in.
My brother and I grew up in a disfunctional family,
with my father addicted to drugs. My brother wanted to protect my mother so
he physically intimidated my Dad with his size. The sad part of all of this is
that we always had money problems, with my Dad spending his paychecks
on drugs. So in order for me to go to a good school, I had to work and
pay the tuition. So what this meant is that I could not go out for sports in high
school. This killed me because of my strength and size. I was constantly
being asked to join the wrestling team. I had guy friends and a wrestling coach who were after me all through the first half of my high school career wanting me to try out for
the team. And man, oh how I wanted to wrestle.
Nothing, nothing made
me feel better than in gym class dominating and pinning another guy close
to my size and weight. I had all this pent up aggression and it felt so fucking
good to pin a guy.
But I couldn't do it. I went to Catholic high school, Catholic
college and Catholic grad school and paid for it all by myself. It was tough
but I did it because I knew it was my only way out of the mess that I was in,
to get a good education and a good job.
Fast forward to today -- I still get hard as hell when I see a big muscle guy. I also
get hard watching guys wrestle and box. I knew that I hated anal sex (never did it
but have had rectal exams for prostate, so to have a man cock 2-3 times the size
of a doctors finger up my ass was inconceivable to me). A total turn off. Same thing
with oral sex with cocks. It was not something I ever wanted to do. However, I
did have one Frot experience in high school with another close friend, an athlete,
and it was incredible! Very different from having sex with a woman though, very
aggressive and full of force. It was the sheer force of the pounding of the cocks
together that blew me away. But it only happened once. So, I never wondered
if I was "gay" because of my dislike for anal and oral sex. I just knew that
whenever I saw a big muscular guy, especially one my size (today I'm 5'10"
235, under 10% body fat) all I wanted to do is to wrestle him buck naked,
with incredible aggression and force.
I'm getting hard right now just thinking
about it.
I honestly thought I was a little weird and I never acted on these
thoughts or discussed them with anyone.
When I first read your web site I thought it was total bullshit. But, I kept coming
back. What convinced me of its truthfulness was all the postings by Naked Wrestler.
He is so damn honest and his life experiences were so close to mine that I could
not believe there was another guy out there who felt the same way I did.
I would really like to learn how to wrestle and box. I look like I'm in my early
50's so I don't think anyone would be too concerned if I joined a fight school.
But I'm no spring chicken either..... Some advice would be appreciated.
Enough said for now. Again, thanks for all the hard work. You can post this
email if you want to.
Mike.
Reply from:
Re: Fight the Fight Now
5-19-2011
Thank you Mike.
First of all, for Mike's sake, I want to post some material from Warrior Naked Wrestler aka Warrior NW which has not been previously posted.
For those of you not familiar with NW, he was a collegiate Wrestler who has since trained in Mixed Martial Arts.
NW sent me this pic of a Wrestler with his hand -- and his Dick -- raised in Victory, and said the following:
What's really significant about this pic is that HE is the victor in the match. THAT is what gave him the hard-on.
It's what used to give ME a hard-on all the time. The aggression is a normal male turn-on....Literally, Sexually.
I remember that from wrestling around with my wrestling buddy in freshman PE class. I would pin the guy (or start to pin him (we were both REALLY lean and as muscular as you could get at 14 years old, hard defined pecs and rock hard cut abs) and I'd be hard-pecs-2-hard-pecs with his warm lean body totally pressed against mine, sqeezing the dude so he couldn't get away, and I'd start to get this rock hard boner from it all as I felt the victory coming. Then I felt the the hard-on coming on really strong.
I was SO terrified of that. And yet, it was SO normal.
It's a victory boner. The victory from the aggression simply excites your male genitals.
It IS all so normal. And so cool.
It reminds me of how guys have told me that they are SUPER SUPER horny after a fight. MMA fighters have told me that there is a sex drive in their cocks that's unreal after a match.
That dude in the pic is a true male warrior.
[NW also said this about riding a Man's butt while Wrestling:]
If you don't ride the dude and stay RIGHT on his butt, because you're homo-phobic and terrified of the man2man balls-and-cock body contact, you will lose this advantageous position and possibly lose the match really quick.
But it CAN give a man a hard cock. My experience was that I was suddenly in control of the bottom man, and that dominant man-on-man feeling hardened up my boner really fast.
I WAS NEVER ONCE INTERESTING IN FUCKING THE GUY IN THE BUTT IN THAT "RIDE" POSITION.
It was the dominance and position-of-control and all the turnover moves possible from that position that turned me on. Dominance and aggression turns ANY normal guy on. It's why we like fights.
Right.
AGGRESSION turns ANY normal GUY on.
It's why we like Fights.
And Victory will give a Guy a hard-on -- a Victory Boner:
I was SO terrified of that. And yet, it was SO normal.
It's a victory boner. The victory from the aggression simply excites your male genitals.
It IS all so normal. And so cool.
"It IS all so normal. And so cool."
Mike -- I hope you heard that.
Now -- let's look more closely at what new Warrior Mike is saying.
And guys, this is the core of what Mike's saying:
Let's start with the second point first:
That's true for me too, and has been since I was a kid -- a boy.
I wanna fight the guy, and then rub cocks with him as Mike describes:
That's SEX between MEN.
That's MAN2MAN.
Like Mike says, "very different from having sex with a woman."
Also very different from anal, where you're penetrating some pseudo-woman's shit-hole.
Why would you do that?
If you want sex with a woman, then you should have sex -- vaginally -- with a woman.
MEN are different.
That's the point.
What's interesting to me is that Mike says he discovered Women in 6th grade.
What's happened to me over the years is that as I get older and get away from the so-called gay community, my sexual interest in Women -- in, as Mike says, "wet warm pussy and big tits," has grown and grown and grown.
Naturally.
It's not forced.
It's just happened.
And that's because, I think, I've let it happen.
As a boy, growing up under the rigid categories of sexual orientation, I thought my interest in guys ruled out any interest in girls.
Not so.
But I didn't know that.
It's been very helpful for me simply to live with Patrick, with a guy who's into "wet warm pussy and big tits" -- and who's also into guys.
Because then I can see that in action.
Now, here's what Patrick said about his attraction to guys:
i did a lot of no-shirt type wrestling around when i was a kid...but i couldn't sleep with my buddies...so no REAL same-sex things ever happened for me..., but i do remember (after i started to become sexually aware) the feeling i had when i was near one of my buddies and we both had our shirts off. it was a strange feeling...part sexy and part aggressive...like i wanted to kick his butt wrestling around with him bare chest to bare chest with only the thin cotton of 2 pair of briefs seperating our cocks. i think you may know what i mean...
it's a weird feeling and it sort of made my chest and cock burn...too bad i never got to shoot my load with him under me and trying to avoid me pinning his shoulders down and beating him.
So -- guys can experience the desire for Fighting and Frot in slightly different ways.
But once they've been presented with the Frot Experience and the Frot Matrix -- it blows them away:
"Very aggressive and full of force" says Mike.
And then he speaks of FORCE again:
That's right.
It's an incredible experience.
Its power -- its force -- is incredible and unforgettable.
It's Male Aggressive Power --
expressed sexually --
with another Male who's EQUALLY Aggressive.
The Aggression has to be mutual.
As another recent poster put it:
And he spoke, regarding his first experience, of a "furious humping" which lasted an entire night, during which "we were on each other, pushing, rubbing, grinding dicks together"
All night long, with great force.
"Very Aggressive and Full of Force."
That's what Frot is.
That's what Man2Man is.
The so-called gay community has turned its back on this -- and thus on its own Manhood.
It's determined to follow a heterosexualized model of male-male which is actually male-pseudofemale.
And despite the fact that that model resulted in hundreds of thousands of deaths nationally and millions worldwide from an anally-vectored disease --
the so-called gay community has been REWARDED for its embrace of an emasculating and disease-spreading "sexuality" -- with full civil rights, including the right to serve in the military, and we may be sure, soon, the right to marry --
and with a virtual cultural dictatorship -- a dictatorship not just about sex, but now about arts and letters too.
Analism and the cultural left -- which is culture in the West -- have become synonomous.
So be it.
The great Roman historian Tacitus, who recorded in detail the depredations of the first emperors, tells us that according to contemporary reports, the adolescent emperor Nero had been "corrupting" -- that is, anally penetrating -- his younger step-brother, Britannicus, who was thirteen years old at the time -- and then had him poisoned.
Says Tacitus:
That's how anal has always been seen in the West -- as an outrage.
Now it's core to society.
You guys -- have a terrible and very tough row to hoe.
Fight the fight now, says Mike.
You'd better.
If you don't, the idea of a Male-Male Sexuality which is Mutually Aggressive and Full of Force --
will be lost.
Perhaps forever.
Nevertheless, and despite the unspeakable cowardice of the putative men who visit this site, Male-Male Sexuality is about Aggression and Force:
The POUNDING of the COCKS.
Like the POUNDING of FISTS and the SLAMMING TOGETHER OF MALE BODIES in the FIGHT.
That's what MAN2MAN is.
An AGON -- an athletic contest so severe as to be an AGONY -- which is EXPLOSIVE in its FORCE.
For guys like me and Patrick and Mike and NW, this is where it's at:
We want to Wrestle and Fight the guy, a guy our size, buck naked, with incredible aggression and force -- and then Fight our Cocks -- with incredible aggression and force.
A FIGHT is incredible aggression and force.
That's what a FIGHT is.
It's not a dance or a ballet or a gymnastic exhibition.
A FIGHT is FURIOUS and FEROCIOUS.
And that's what Phallus Against Phallus, Balls Against Balls -- has to be too.
FURIOUS and FEROCIOUS.
In Latin, furor and ferox.
To the Romans, furor -- savage passion -- and ferox -- ferocity -- were the attributes of youth.
In both Fighting -- and in Love.
Furor + Ferox = Virtus.
Savage Passion + Ferocity = Virtue -- Martial Courage.
Which in Greek is Areté -- Manly Excellence.
Manly Prowess.
Which comes from ARES -- the God of War.
Virtus and Areté -- Virtue and Valour and Manliness and Warrior Prowess and Manhood -- all those terms are virtually interchangeable in ancient literature.
That's what MAN is.
MEN are MANLY -- they're possessed of Virtus and Areté.
NO MAN SHOULD EVER BE LESS THAN VIRTUOUS AND VALOROUS.
To surrender Virtue and Valour is to surrender Manhood, is to sell your Manly Birthright for a mess of contemporary porridge -- in our culture, money and buttfuck.
Money is shit and buttfuck is shitsex.
The ancients understood that.
Plato:
Now, here's something interesting.
Mike:
When I first read your web site I thought it was total bullshit.
Let's look at that.
Mike thought the site was bullshit, even though:
a) He searched for the site -- I didn't write to him, he wrote to me;
b) Mike, who loves wet warm pussy and big tits, has *also* had Man2Man Fighting and Frot fantasies all his life; and
c) Mike knew, experentially, what Frot is like:
"Very Aggressive and Full of Force."
Even though Mike knew and knows all that -- the power of the larger culture is such that he thought our site was bullshit.
Poor Mike!
And I mean that.
He's been so beaten down by his heterosexualized and effeminized culture, that when he's shown the truth, which he knows to be the truth, he dismisses it as bullshit.
Right.
Nevertheless, Mike kept coming back.
And good for him.
And he was able to see in Warrior NW -- a kindred spirit and soul.
Which is why I put up all those posts from NW.
So guys, and listen up:
You've seen the TRUTH, you've felt the TRUTH, you know the TRUTH --
You need to act on that TRUTH.
And you need to do it NOW.
Mike's fifty-seven.
He says he's in great shape.
And that's great.
But time moves forward, it doesn't move back.
You have only one sweet precious Manly Life.
You can't keep fucking around within a promiscuous, effeminized, man-hating, money-grubbing, greed-worshipping culture whose values are antithetical to your Life and to what you need to Live that Life.
My patience with you guys is gone.
I have other things I want to do with my life.
Things other than trying to help males who are terminally stupid, stingy, and selfish.
Translation:
The sites may be here tomorrow or they may not.
Because I no longer have patience for you or your puny would-be male evasions and excuses.
You need to act soon.
You need to act NOW.
I thank Mike.
He's a true Warrior.
But there are far too few of him.
Far too few.
Bill Weintraub
May 19, 2011
© All material Copyright 2011 by Bill Weintraub. All rights reserved.
Reply from:
Re: Fight the Fight Now
5-20-2011
Hey Bill,
Thanks for publishing my email and the reply.
I'd like to make some additional comments based on your feedback.
Let me just say that your site is awesome. What I like about it is that we can say whatever we want and feel totally safe saying it. No one will go on a witch hunt based on our comments. This is particularly important because what we are sharing is very personal. Frankly I have NEVER told anyone what I mentioned in my email to you earlier in the week. But, because I felt safe I was able to say it. I was also READY to say it.
I think a lot of guys, especially the "straight" ones like me, need to be ready to say these things in an honest way. What sold me, like I said earlier, were the personal warrior comments, especially Naked Wrestler's comments.
So many of the things he said were so similar to my experiences that my feeling was "well if it happened to this guy, who is so damned honest, then it must be true". That is when I was sold on this site.
It takes a lot of guts to admit that you are attracted to guys. Most of us are in such denial. Whenever I would get a hard cock when I saw a big muscular
guy I would pretend that I didn't feel it. What you end up doing is turning off your feelings. But once you admit to the feelings you begin to realise that you are just like every other guy. It's really liberating to admit this and to feel so normal.
Some additional comments:
I am attracted to women because they are so different from us guys. Their bodies are so soft and smell so good. A beautiful woman has big soft tits, long legs, a beautuful ass and above all, a wet, warm pussy. Just thinking
about the aroma from a wet pussy gives me a such a hardon. Women are so different, so mysterious, than us guys. This mystery is what draws me to them. A beautiful woman is a lot like eating a very ripe peach, so delicious and juicy.
Men are a different story. What attracts me to a man is his aggression, strength, size and hardness. Like I said in my earlier email, to wrestle a guy buck naked with my size, strength and aggression is very cool. For me, I am extremely competitive. I'm in sales and I get my aggression out by selling my ass off every day. But what I find is that I constantly have to keep my
aggression in check. Like you said, aggressive guys are not looked upon favorably in our society.
In my case, because I work out and take good care of myself, I've got a LOT of pent up aggression inside of me. That is why, to wrestle or box another guy my size and strength is SUCH a turn on because I could finally let out all my aggression in the fight. Just the thought of fighting all out makes me hard.
Also, and I must say this, is that I have enormous respect for any guy
that takes good care of his body and also practices martial arts. I've got a good friend of mine, a little younger than me (early 50's) who has been lifting for a long time and is also a black belt. When I am around him I feel so energized.
We have been friends forever, so he senses that I have a Man Crush on him but he is so big, strong, hard and such a fighter that I just worship him. We have been buddies for a long time. I'm seriously thinking of joining his fight
school. The reason I bring this guy up is because my respect is so strong that I would do NOTHING to dishonor him. When I read about anal sex, it so disturbs me because it is the ultimate form of disrespect of one guy to another. When you have great respect for another man, only then can you appreciate what disrespect means.
Enough said. Thanks again for keeping this site going.
Fight the fight now.
Mike
Reply from:
Re: Fight the Fight Now
5-31-2011
I wish so much that there was a place, a physical place, where guys like me, Bill, Patrick, and Mike could meet and flat-out enjoy each other's Warrior Energy. I want to meet guys like this. I feel lonely if I can't be around warriors.
I am absolutely flattered that I connect with guys like myself. I feel like I've done some good with my life.
Part of the statement by Mike:
We have been friends forever, so he senses that I have a Man Crush on him but he is so big, strong, hard and such a fighter that I just worship him. We have been buddies for a long time. I'm seriously thinking of joining his fight school. The reason I bring this guy up is because my respect is so strong that I would do NOTHING to dishonor him. When I read about anal sex, it so disturbs me because it is the ultimate form of disrespect of one guy to another. When you have great respect for another man, only then can you appreciate what disrespect means.
So Mike,
I also have a good friend in MMA. In fact he is in the UFC. Excellent, Excellent dude. Manly. Beautiful body. Cut. Defined. Gentle. TOUGH.
He has Areté. He is Aristocracy.....the old fashioned Aristocracy. Not the rich Aristocracy -- he has Manly Aristocracy. Ares, the God of War.
The few times I've grappled and wrestled with him I've been turned on by just the sight and touch of him. THE DUDE IS MUSCLED AND CUT!
I've also sparred with him a few times. I've been knocked against the wall and down to the ground when his well-trained fists connect with my face. This warrior has then picked me up off the ground, hugged me and apologized for that. He is that much of a man. In fighting, you're going to get hurt once in a while. It's a man thing.
But it is really the manly fight and self respecting toughness in him that is the turn on. Manliness is a man-magnet. THAT type of attraction for another Man is NOT "gay." Gay is butt fucking and cowardly revulsion of manly characteristics. Fags are repulsed by real manliness. Manly attraction among men is Normal. And that type of attraction you can feel right down in your ball sack and your penis.
My friend has the courage to take a man on in a scheduled, you-know-the-fight-is-coming-up, cage fight, and it is a commitment to that end. I absolutely adore that in the man, and I've never had the nerve to just tell him that THAT turns me on sexually. EVEN THOUGH I now know now that it is normal to feel that way.
So I can relate to you on that point also.
Mike you sound so cool. I wish I could get to know you. Also, You HAVE done a manly thing by pulling yourself up on your own. Always be proud of that.
NW.
Reply from:
Re: Fight the Fight Now
6-2-2011
NW,
Thanks for the great post. I have a couple of comments:
I've read all of your posts, some several times. As you already know, I've had a rough childhood. I've been in therapy
for 5 years and this has been hugely helpful. I have been able to forgive my father and mother for what happened
to me and this has helped me to finally deal with the enormous anger I was carrying around with me for most of my life.
It also helped me to feel. Before all of my feelings were turned off. Now they are on. With the denial gone, my feelings
are there. The reason I bring this up is because when I came across the Man2Man Alliance website, I was ready to
feel the feelings that were turned off and not to deny them. Bill's posts and especially yours were very powerful and helped me to realize this.
Thank you.
My friend has the courage to take a man on in a scheduled, you-know-the-fight-is-coming-up, cage fight, and it is a commitment to that end. I absolutely adore
that in the man, and I've never had the nerve to just tell him that THAT turns me on sexually. EVEN THOUGH I now know now that it is normal to feel that way.
I've felt the same way about my close friend too. We've known each other for a long time. I know exactly how you feel.
You're right. This attraction, which I defintely felt that night, I felt right down to my ball sack and penis. IT FELT GREAT!! I'm not gay. I'm normal. I love aggression. I love to fight. I really, really like being around manly men, big, powerful men who can fight. IT FEELS GREAT!! I was able to release all the pent up aggression. When I got home, I could not sleep. I was up till midnight. When I finally did fall asleep, I kept waking up with raging hardons all night. What an experience!!
I'm going back.
Mike
Reply from:
Re: Fight the Fight Now
6-14-2011
Thank you Warriors Mike and NW.
Guys -- Warriors Mike and NW have started corresponding -- which is EXCELLENT! --
and they've let me see some of their emails.
And both have indicated that because of work and other pressures, they've both been having trouble finding the time to train and Fight.
Even though training and Fighting are enormously important to both of them -- as they are to all MEN.
This is what I wrote back to Mike and NW:
Guys, I want to point something out to both of you.
Mike, you wrote:
My work is about culture and cultural change.
You guys are both having trouble finding the time to -- Fight.
Yet -- in ancient Greece, every Man went to what we would call Fight
School -- every day.
Every afternoon, Greek Men gathered at the Palaistra, where they would
wrestle, box, and train in pankration -- nude.
How did they find the time to do that?
Well, you may find this facile, but the answer is they found the time
because their culture insisted -- dictated -- that they find the time.
It was core to their culture.
Fighting was core to their culture.
The Palaistra was core to their culture.
Part of that was "practical" -- in the sense that wrestling in
particular gave them skills needed on the battlefield.
Every Greek Man was a citizen-soldier.
Every Greek Man was expected to Fight for his city-state -- and wars
were frequent.
So wrestling -- and training in general -- kept them in shape for those battles.
Sokrates says that explicitly.
That you have to keep your body in shape -- because it could save your life.
And/or save you from behaving in a cowardly way in battle, and thus
being disgraced:
"Well," he replied, "I'm not an athlete, Socrates."
"Just as much as the competitors entered for Olympia," he retorted. "Or do you count the life and death struggle with their enemies, upon which, it may be, the Athenians will enter, but a small thing?
Why, many, thanks to their bad condition, lose their life in the perils of war or save it disgracefully: many, just for this same cause, are taken prisoners, and then either pass the rest of their days, perhaps, in slavery of the hardest kind, or, after meeting with cruel sufferings and paying, sometimes, more than they have, live on, destitute and in misery. Many, again, by their bodily weakness earn infamy, being thought cowards.
Or do you despise these, the rewards of bad condition, and think that you can easily endure such things? And yet I suppose that what has to be borne by anyone who takes care to keep his body in good condition is far lighter and far pleasanter than these things. Or is it that you think bad condition healthier and generally more serviceable than good, or do you despise the effects of good condition?
And yet the results of physical fitness are the direct opposite of those that follow from unfitness. The fit are healthy and strong; and many, as a consequence, save themselves decorously on the battle-field and escape all the dangers of war; many help friends and do good to their country and for this cause earn gratitude; get great glory and gain very high honours, and for this cause live henceforth a pleasanter and better life, and leave to their children better means of winning a livelihood.
Sokrates then adds that "a sound and healthy body is a strong protection to a man," even apart from war:
. . . For you may rest assured that there is no kind of struggle, apart from war, and no undertaking in which you will be worse off by keeping your body in better fettle. For in everything that men do the body is useful; and in all uses of the body it is of great importance to be in as high a state of physical efficiency as possible.
Why, even in the process of thinking, in which the use of the body seems to be reduced to a minimum, it is a matter of common knowledge that grave mistakes may often be traced to bad health. And because the body is in a bad condition, loss of memory, depression, discontent, insanity often assail the mind so violently as to drive whatever knowledge it contains clean out of it.
But a sound and healthy body is a strong protection to a man, and at least there is no danger then of such a calamity happening to him through physical weakness: on the contrary, it is likely that his sound condition will serve to produce effects the opposite of those that arise from bad condition. And surely a man of sense would submit to anything to obtain the effects that are the opposite of those mentioned in my list.
"Besides, it is a disgrace to grow old through sheer carelessness before seeing what manner of man you may become by developing your bodily strength and beauty to their highest limit. But you cannot see that, if you are careless; for it will not come of its own accord."
So there was a practical aspect to training -- staying fit for war, staying fit for peace.
But it wasn't just practical.
The Palaistra was a highly communal experience.
At the Palaistrai, the guys boxed and wrestled and trained together,
there was a
religious aspect -- there were shrines and religious activities within
the Palaistrai --
and the guys talked.
What did they talk about?
Well, many things.
But one of the things they talked about, we know, was -- What does it
mean to be a Man.
We know that from the Sokratic dialogues.
And much of Sokrates' teaching was at Palaistrai.
For example, in the Platonic dialogue known as the Lysis, Sokrates is
passing by a doorway and a group of youths standing outside invite him
in.
What is this place? he asks.
A Palaistra, they answer.
And he goes into the Palaistra and there has a long conversation with
a youth named Lysis about friendship in a male-male context.
So the Palaistra was about Fighting, and Manhood, and Virtue -- Areté.
Very explicitly.
Now, Mike, you say you spend a lot of time traveling.
What did an ancient Greek do when he was away from his native city?
He went to the local Palaistra and trained.
We know that because when the Spartans seized the Theban akropolis,
called the Kadmeia -- and de facto were occupying Thebes --
the Spartan garrison still went in the afternoons to the Theban
Palaistrai -- and wrestled!
That's how important -- how ingrained in the culture -- Fight School
was to the Greeks.
The Spartans and the Thebans were enemies.
But in the afternoons, the Spartans and the Thebans would get together
at the Fight School.
And wrestle.
So -- in our culture, Fight School is at best an optional activity.
Which means you guys have to "find time" to do it.
In ancient Greek culture, it was a required activity.
A guy who didn't go to the Palaistra -- would soon find himself in
trouble with his peers.
Again, the culture dictated that Men train.
So -- what the culture says -- matters.
Which means that, in your situation, cultural change is key.
It's okay to look for what I call a "private solution";
but ultimately, even with the best outcome, a private solution keeps
you marginalized and deviant.
You need cultural change.
Unfortunately, bringing about cultural change, at the stage we're in,
is a slow and difficult process.
But that doesn't mean it can't be done, or that doing it isn't worth it.
After all, both of you guys have already benefitted -- from the work
we're doing -- right now.
Bill
Reply from:
Re: Fight the Fight Now
6-15-2011
Hey Bill,
You have a unique way of hitting the bulls eye every time.
I really like that. No bull shit from Bill.
Yes, I need to go to fight school, especially when I travel. I need to figure out a way
to do that.
My boxing is coming along and I feel really good about it.
NW made me realize that it really needs to be a big part of what I do. All of his posts
refer to wrestling being a big part of his life. I've learned a TON from his posts.
It makes me feel really complete, like I should have been doing this for a long time
and finally I'm doing something that completes me as a man.
The lifting and the fight school. Both together. It's really great.
Bill, you're right about the culture change. American culture is really in a bad way.
We need to lead the way but it does take time.
We need to live what we believe and what we preach.
Warriors, nothing less is acceptable.
Thanks Bill for the feedback and the kick in the ass. I needed that.
Mike
Reply from:
Re: Fight the Fight Now
6-16-2011
Hey Mike
It's great hearing back from you!
I really like that. No bull shit from Bill.
Thank you Mike.
Right.
I don't know how many different cities you go to, but maybe you can
slowly build relationships with Fight Schools in those various cities.
Great!
Right!
And over time, it'll become that.
Great!
Yes!
Exactly!
It completes you as a Man.
Mike, in your first reply to this message thread, to Fight the Fight Now!, you said
"What attracts me to a man is his aggression, strength, size and hardness."
Right.
Strength, size, and hardness are the *physical* markers for Masculinity -- for Manliness.
*Aggression* is the core *behavioral* marker for Masculinity.
It's at the core of Manliness.
The Hallmark of Manliness is Fighting Spirit -- Aggression.
When you learn how to express your Aggression in a controlled and
disciplined way -- you become complete as a Man.
So: Fight Pix express both the physical and behavioral markers for Masculinity:
The guy on the right has a beautifully muscular, V-shaped torso.
But if he were just standing -- or lying -- there -- he wouldn't be fully -- completely -- male.
It's his use of his body to express his aggression -- which makes this a meaningful pic -- meaningful in a Manly way:
And that's why what you've said is so important:
What attracts me to a man is his aggression, strength, size and hardness.
Right.
Lifting = the physical aspect: strength, size, hardness; fight school = the behavioral aspect: aggression.
Both together = the complete Man.
Bill, you're right about the culture change. American culture is really in a bad way.
We need to lead the way but it does take time.
We need to live what we believe and what we preach.
Warriors, nothing less is acceptable.
Very well-said!
Okay.
When I was writing I didn't conceptualize what I was saying as a kick in the ass -- at least not to you personally.
It was, however, meant to be a kick in the cultural ass -- this is what the Greeks did, they did it because their culture supported their doing it -- and for that reason our guys need to think culturally and in terms of cultural change.
Mike -- would you like me to add my reply to your earlier email and
this email from you to the Fight the Fight Now message thread?
Please let me know.
Those emails would make good additions to that thread.
Bill
Reply from:
Re: Fight the Fight Now
6-16-2011
Hey,
Sure you can post these. I really think you guys are great!!
Your comments below:
It makes me feel really complete, like I should have been doing this for a
long time and finally I'm doing something that completes me as a man.
Bill:
Yes!
Exactly!
Mike, in your first reply to Fight the Fight Now, you said
"What attracts me to a man is his aggression, strength, size and hardness."
Right.
Strength, size, and hardness are the *physical* markers for
*Aggression* is the core *behavioral* marker for Masculinity.
It's at the core of Manliness.
The Hallmark of Manliness is Fighting Spirit -- Aggression.
When you learn how to express your Aggression in a controlled and
disciplined way -- you become complete as a Man.
Bill, this is really profound stuff for me. You are so right. Like NW says, I can really feel it in my ball sack and my Mancock.
I feel sooooo complete with fight school and lifting.
I can tell you understand that. It's just SO COOL!!
[Bill Weintraub:
Guys, there's a slight break in the continuity here, so let me explain:
In a separate email, I'd cautioned Mike about "gay" wrestling sites and such.
I said to him:
My advice is that you avoid -- indeed, flee like the plague --
anything "gay," and anything aimed at gay-identified males.
Because -- you're NOT "gay."
"Gay" is about anal, promiscuity, and effeminacy.
And what "gay" seeks to do to anything it has contact with --
including wrestling -- is make it a vehicle for anal, promiscuity, and
effeminacy.
That's not remotely what you're about or should be about.
"Gay" corrupts.
Mike responded:
Ok, thanks for the advice.
I agree. I want nothing linked to the gay world and their values.
The gay world can and will hurt me.
To which I responded:
Yes!
It's critical that you understand that.
And protect yourself just as you would against any other predatory
force taking aim at your life.
Mike -- this is a link to a vid NW sent me:
If you're going to watch vids, that's the sort of thing I recommend.
Turn off the sound -- I always tell guys to do that, because the sound
is usually a heterosexualized editorial and you don't need that -- and
just watch the Fight.
What you see in this Fight -- on the part of both Men -- is the Male's indomitable Fighting Spirit.
It's a great Fight.
That's what you need to see and surround yourself with.
So -- there's an old Marxist saying:
"Being determines conciousness."
If your "being" is gay gay gay -- that's what your consciousness becomes.
If your being is Man -- that's what your consciousness becomes.
The behavior of the Men in the Fight Vid is pure MAN.
And you need to surround yourself with that and immerse yourself in it.
Everywhere and in every way you can.
To which NW added:
My thoughts exactly.
I basically grew totally tired out from the whole "gay" scene.
As I've matured into more Manly stuff, I just drifted away from anything that was "gay"-related.
To which Mike replied:
I would defintely not want to be around the gay guys. . .
I really hate it when they approach me looking for anal. It just sets me off.
I've been hit on enough. It just pisses me off.
Now -- getting back to his present email -- and I'm sorry if this is confusing, but we're back to the discussion of culture and the culture of Fighting -- this is what Mike said right after he'd said
I feel sooooo complete with fight school and lifting.
I can tell you understand that. It's just SO COOL!!
:]
Mike:
I have had problems with gay guys who want to fuck me up the ass.
Because of my size and butch looks, gay guys come on to me. Believe me, I don't send out ANY SIGNALS.
I have to tell you this one story.
I was driving home from the oral surgeons office and I noticed a car driving behind me that was parked next to me at the doctors office.
I pulled up to a light and he pulls up next to me and uses his arms like he wants me to pull over. I don't know him from Adam.
He keep beeping his horn. Other cars also pull up and are trying to figure out what he is up to.
The light changes. We start to drive, he gets behind me, beeping his horn, and he pulls over to the shoulder. I continue to drive and then through my rear view mirror I notice his face and he is really pissed, giving me the finger out his driver's side window.
A week later, at a social event, not far from that stoplight, guess who walks up to me? This guy. He's young -- a college student.
And this guy is all over me. He asks how I've been, can we talk later, looking me straight in the eye, coming really close to me physically.
I then pull him aside, away from everyone in hearing distance, and I tell him my ass is NOT AVAILABLE and to keep as far away from me as he can or I'll break him in two.
I think I scared the shit out of him, since he then worked other people and stayed completely away from me.
So, I'm sensitive to gay guys and their anal shit. I really don't want any part of it. When they come on to me, all I want to do is beat the shit out of them. I HATE IT.
Believe me, I would not beat gays up for no reason. I'm not like that. I just hate it when they are so damn persistent. They just don't stop trying.
I think you understand this.
Also, the video is awesome. Thanks for the link.
Mike
Reply from:
Re: Fight the Fight Now
6-17-2011
Hey Mike
It's great hearing back from you!
Thank you Mike!
You too!
Mike:
It makes me feel really complete, like I should have been doing this for a
long time and finally I'm doing something that completes me as a man.
Bill:
Yes!
Exactly!
Mike, in your first reply to Fight the Fight Now, you said
"What attracts me to a man is his aggression, strength, size and hardness."
Right.
Strength, size, and hardness are the *physical* markers for
*Aggression* is the core *behavioral* marker for Masculinity.
It's at the core of Manliness.
The Hallmark of Manliness is Fighting Spirit -- Aggression.
When you learn how to express your Aggression in a controlled and
disciplined way -- you become complete as a Man.
Right!
Great!
Oh yeah!
There's nothin better in this world!
I have had problems with gay guys who want to fuck me up the ass.
Oh yeah.
Tell me about it.
They're true pests.
Pests in the world of Men.
Mike -- re "gay guys"
Try to remember that there are no "gay guys."
There are guys who self-identify as "gay."
And they can properly be referred to, without quotes, as gay-identified males.
But they're not "gay guys."
There are no "gay guys."
"Gay" is a cultural construct.
NOT a biological reality.
And the construct is extremely destructive.
Like I said, it turns males into pests.
Carriers -- and this is not a joke or an exaggeration -- of disease -- of PLAGUE.
This is from the respected AIDS website avert.org:
[emphases mine]
Of course, when avert.org says MSM what it really means is "males who do anal with males."
So the acronym shouldn't be MSM -- it should be MAM.
And what they're engaging in isn't "sex" -- it's anal penetration:
So -- let's see what we've got:
That's the TRUTH -- the scientific TRUTH -- brought to you by a respected AIDS website -- about gay-identifed males who do anal.
Thirty years into the epidemic -- and even though the mode of transmission is well-understood -- they continue to infect each other at a horrendous rate.
And then -- and if that's not bad enough -- they seek to perpetuate and SPREAD the behavior which produces the plague.
I repeat what I said:
They are pests -- in the world of Men.
Right.
Mike -- you're not sending "gay" signals.
But they can see your Masculinity.
Their culture teaches them to despise Masculinity.
But because they're male, that's what they're attracted to.
Masculinity.
The same thing happens with me, and has all my life.
I get hit on by those creatures BECAUSE I'm Masculine.
Then they chew me out for championing Masculinity and Manliness.
Fact is, they and their subculture -- are insane.
I don't want to have anything to do with them.
I'm not interested.
I have to tell you this one story.
I was driving home from the oral surgeons office and I noticed a car driving behind me that was parked next to me at the doctors office.
I pulled up to a light and he pulls up next to me and uses his arms like he wants me to pull over. I don't know him from Adam.
He keep beeping his horn. Other cars also pull up and are trying to figure out what he is up to.
The light changes. We start to drive, he gets behind me, beeping his horn, and he pulls over to the shoulder. I continue to drive and then through my rear view mirror I notice his face and he is really pissed, giving me the finger out his driver's side window.
A week later, at a social event, not far from that stoplight, guess who walks up to me? This guy. He's young -- a college student.
And this guy is all over me. He asks how I've been, can we talk later, looking me straight in the eye, coming really close to me physically.
I then pull him aside, away from everyone in hearing distance, and I tell him my ass is NOT AVAILABLE and to keep as far away from me as he can or I'll break him in two.
Way to go Mike!!!
I think I scared the shit out of him, since he then worked other people and stayed completely away from me.
Good!!!
Yes -- and that's a normal and Manly Male reaction.
And that's what analist culture is trying to suppress -- trying
desperately to suppress.
They won't rest until every male is a shitfaery and buttqueen.
They want to destroy Manhood.
That's the Truth.
I think you understand this.
YES!!!
I UNDERSTAND IT.
As I'm going to say in a forthcoming post, and as I've said before:
Gay-identified males regard anal as an entitlement.
Which is what analist culture teaches.
Their culture teaches them to be zealous in "encouraging" other males to try anal.
To persist and persist and persist.
And to get angry, to react with disdain and disgust, if those males
refuse to do anal.
And to then resort to more pressure, and if need be, coercion, to get what they want.
Which is why the rate of analist rape is so high.
According to a 1994 study, fully one third of gay-identified males have experienced it:
Incidents of nonconsensual sexual activity among 930 homosexually active men living in England and Wales are analyzed. Of these men, 27.6% said they had been sexually assaulted or had sex against their will at some point in their lives; one third had been forced into sexual activity (usually anal intercourse) by men with whom they had previously had, or were currently having, consensual sexual activity. The contention that male rape is usually committed by heterosexually identified men, primarily as an expression of power and control, is not supported. Recognition that gay men rape other gay men is needed, both by the gay community and support services for victims.
Again, the coercion -- that is, rape -- usually takes places within a context of "consensual sexual activity" -- and thus can be reasonably described as date rape.
And that's one of MANY reasons why --
You have to be FORCEFUL when they start coming on to you.
Mike, I had a similar incident about a month ago.
I was just walking my dog, and some fag emerged from a shadow and glommed onto me.
I came close to punching the guy.
Because he was persistent in that really obnoxious and faggy way.
I said to him -- I'm NOT interested in you, in anything about you, or in anything you think you have to offer.
GO AWAY.
He went.
Yeah!
That's what you want.
And need.
Mike -- thank you for permission to post.
It'll take me a while.
I'll let you know when everything's up.
Mike -- you're a true Warrior.
Bill
Reply from:
Re: Fight the Fight Now
6-18-2011
Hey Bill,
One last thing.
I can't tell you how your posts (including the images) have had such a strong and lasting impact on me.
What's really cool about the Warrior site is that I can go back and read and read, over and over, what you have posted, alot going back to almost 10 years ago.
I must have read NW's posts at least 10 times. I know that sounds excessive but he has had SUCH a profound impact on me that
it has really changed my outlook on my life and who I am as a Man.
I want to thank you again for all the work done on this site. It must be frustrating at times, especially with many of the guys who come to the
site but don't move forward.
Having been in therapy and with a support group for 5 years, I understand how denial works. With much of my "work " done, I'm now in a place
to be a Kickass Warrior. I could NEVER have done this 4 years ago. I just wasn't ready. Now I am.
Mike
Reply from:
Re: Fight the Fight Now
6-18-2011
Hey Mike
It's great hearing from you!
And Mike, thank you for letting me know.
Regarding the images --
As I said in my earlier reply, and assuming you mean the Fight images, both modern and ancient, we use those images because they show the Man complete:
As you put it Mike, strength, size, hardness, aggression:
We also show blood in the images because blood is part of Fighting.
Particularly Boxing and Pankration / MMA, both modern and ancient:
Right.
And that's really one of the best things you can do --
is read as deeply and as often as you can on the site.
NO.
It's not excessive.
Again, it's a really good thing to do.
I wish more of our guys would do that.
Just read articles over and over and over again.
Very important given how hostile the rest of the culture is.
Great!
Thank you Mike.
Yes, it is frustrating.
But, you know, I've been an activist since 1972.
And it's par for the course.
Social change is slow, it's difficult.
Just how it is.
For example:
Abolishing slavery was a huge battle.
But then slavery was re-placed by "jim crow."
One evil was defeated, but it was succeeded by another.
Why?
Because the dominant culture of white supremacy, which had enabled black slavery, persisted even after slavery itself was illegal.
That's what's happened with male-male.
The "medical model of homosexuality" was defeated.
But it's been replaced by "sexual orientation."
Both are the result of heterosexualization, and the assumption that male-male acts -- of affection, of intimacy, of love -- somehow constitute a condition.
They do NOT.
They're just acts -- that's all they are.
But, like the theory of white supremacy, the theory of "homosexuality" and "sexual orientation" persists.
That has to be defeated.
And that is and will continue to be a struggle.
Nevertheless, and at the same time, fact is that the Alliance has come very far in the last eleven years.
And in a very hostile environment.
Yes.
And that's an EXCELLENT point.
Many -- MOST -- of the guys who visit the site are in denial.
In denial about what they want, in denial about what they need, and in
denial about what's actually going on in society --
and how great a threat it constitutes to themselves.
But it's as you said, Mike, and this is your core statement:
It takes a lot of guts to admit that you are attracted to guys. Most of us are in such denial. Whenever I would get a hard cock when I saw a big muscular
guy I would pretend that I didn't feel it. What you end up doing is turning off your feelings. But once you admit to the feelings you begin to realise that you are just like every other guy. It's really liberating to admit this and to feel so normal.
And I hope the truth of that statement will stay with you Mike literally for the rest of your Brave and Manly life.
Right.
You're now ready to be what God and Nature have always intended you to be:
A WARRIOR.
Bill Weintraub
Reply from:
Re: Fight the Fight Now
6-19-2011
Hey Bill,
Thanks for that insight about the Greeks, the palaistrai, and finding time to fight.
I would like to have a private place for men to get together and just hang out naked---one day a week even. It's what I love about the locker room at a gym. It's the closest thing to a palaistra there is. Men can relax in a the locker room. No women. The one-room shower is part of that experience. Young males need to be encouraged to shower naked with other men. It's important to see each other naked. VERY important.
I'm happy to know you both and to be able to write honestly about what I've experienced, known, and what I hope for in the future...
NW
Reply from:
Re: Fight the Fight Now
6-20-2011
Thank you both NW and Mike.
Now guys, before continuing this discussion between and among Mike, NW, and myself, which we're going to do in a separate message thread, I want to talk about Fighting being at a culture's core -- at, as I say, its cultural center.
And in this case the culture in question is the ancient Greek and Roman Dominant Culture of Heroic, Nude, Testicular, Masculinity --
That Dominant Culture of Heroic, Nude, Testicular, Masculinity --
is the WARRIOR culture which we've discussed in many places, including in the post titled Combative and Aggressive;
And in the post titled Excellence, Honor, and the Molding of Men.
In that latter post, I point out the Fighting was not simply core in a figurative sense, but also in a literal sense, to Greek Culture.
Because culture was transmitted, boys were educated, at first at the Palaistra and then at the Palaistra-Gymnasion.
The Palaistra was originally just a meadow and some trees for shade.
But over time, buildings were built.
Buildings with arcades and porches and thick masonry walls to provide more substantial shelter.
And in Excellence, Honor, and the Molding of Men, we looked at a description of the ideal Palaistra taken from Vitruvius, a Roman architect of the late first-century BC;
which is to be found in Ancient Greek Athletics, a book by Stephen Miller, professor of classical archaeology at UC Berkeley.
(And a tip o' the hat to Warrior NW for turning me on to Professor Miller's book.)
There's a schematic of the actual palaistra in ancient Olympia in Professor Miller's book, and it's reproduced below -- with an addition from me in red.
Professor Miller:
Vitruvius begins his specifications for the ideal palaistra with a large central courtyard, open to the sky and surrounded by roofed colonnades. The ancient name of this area was self-descriptive: peristyle (surrounded by columns). Although he does not say so, we know that this area would have been filled with skammata, the pits where boxers, wrestlers, and pankratiasts practiced. Indeed, the word palaistra was derived from pale (wrestling), and the connection of the building with wrestling was always understood.
Next Vitruvius prescribes single colonnades on three sides, with a double colonnade on the north to protect the room behind from storms and sun. Behind the single colonnades he set exedrai (bays) with seats where classes would be held in philosophy, rhetoric, and other disciplines. One wall of the exedra would be open, and this opening usually would have columns to support a roof. There are many of these in the palaistra at Olympia, some with benches attached to the three solid walls (see rooms VI, VIII, XVIII), and some without (see rooms V, VII, XVII). These introduce us to the fundamental feature of the palaistra-gymnasion; it is a place where the mind as well as the body is exercised and trained.
In the middle of the north side of the courtyard, behind the double colonnade, Vitruvius recommends setting an especially large exedra with seats. This is the ephebeion, where the ephebes -- the young men training to become citizens -- receive their lessons about the heritage and traditions of their homeland [city-state]. This corresponds to room XII at Olympia.
Working out at the palaistra.
Vitruvius, via Professor Miller, goes on to describe a room for coating the skin with dust, a room with a small bath or pool, and a punching-bag room.
Professor Miller also notes that every palaistra would have had an apodyterion, or undressing room -- because the guys excercised in the nude.
In the schematic from Olympia, he thinks it would be room V, which is located between the two entrances on the south side of the building.
So: Professor Miller tells us that
And remember that the exedrai, the classrooms, had walls which were open to the central courtyard, so that guys fighting, and fighting nude, were ALWAYS on view.
And that to me is really the core point:
That at the center of the Palaistra, and therefore of Greek Culture, which the Greeks called Paideia, was a Fighting Pit.
That Areté flows from Ares, the Warrior God
And that classical education, the Molding of Men, *literally* centered on Fighting.
Literally.
Now guys:
I've just made an assertion:
That at the core of Greek culture -- the most glorious culture the world has ever known -- was Fighting.
And -- that that's not just metaphorical, but literal.
Fight pits are at the core of Palaistrai, and, as Prof Miller says,
That's what the Palaistra was.
A place, Bill said with a deep sigh, where the mind as well as the body, was exercised and trained.
The body was taught how to Fight.
The mind was taught how to Think.
As the mind learned how to Think, it also learned how to Fight -- intellectually.
In that sense, the Palaistra was a Fight School for both the body and the mind.
And that's why I sighed.
Because based on what I see in the media and in my inbox, virtually no one today knows how to either Fight or Think.
Ancient Men did -- they knew how to Fight and Think.
You DON'T.
And this presents you with a problem.
Because either Bill Weintraub -- that's me -- is telling the Truth -- or I'm lying.
And in the case of Fighting being at the cultural core of ancient Greek civilization, I've given you a source:
Stephen Miller's Ancient Greek Athletics.
And you can go to any library and request a copy -- and see if I quoted the professor correctly.
You can do that.
Get off your well-padded ass and go to the library and see if Bill Weintraub's lying or telling the Truth.
If I'm lying -- you can relax back into your sedan chair and continue watching Lady Gaga in Dialing for Dollars.
But if I'm not lying -- you've got a problem.
Because that means the culture you live in -- and with it, YOU -- are utterly FUCKED.
Because that culture has tossed out Fighting -- and with it -- Thinking.
Right now I've got a number of posts in my hopper that I'm struggling with because they're responses to articles I've seen in the mainstream media, articles which are so THOUGHTLESS -- BRAINLESS -- that it's next to impossible to know how to respond.
Be that as it may, however, and that said, the problem is not just mine -- it's yours.
And like I say, it boils down to this:
Either I'm lying or telling the Truth.
For example, when I say that among men who have 'sex' with men, anal is the primary mode of transmission of HIV, am I lying or telling the Truth?
The Truth.
What about when I say that fecal material is always present during anal?
True.
When I say that Frot is the only mutually and directly genital sex two Men can have?
That too is the Truth.
What about when I say that "sexual orientation" is a cultural construct and NOT a biological reality?
Well, you see, just as I have Stephen Miller as a source for Fighting and the Palaistra, so I have -- for example -- Richard Horton, editor of the presitigious UK medical journal The Lancet, who stated in a New York Review of Books article critiquing the search for a "gay" gene, that those looking for such a gene
Did you hear that everybody?
There are NO convincing historical grounds for the idea that "gay" and
"straight" constitute, in effect, two different species.
NO convincing historical grounds means NONE.
You see guys, I was a "gay" activist.
And I can tell ya, cause I was there:
"Gay" exists for political reasons.
It's easier to argue for "gay" rights if you can make it appear that
"gay" is similar to -- having "black" skin.
A genetic condition which is, in effect, immutable.
But what Horton says is correct -- there are no convincing historical
grounds for that view.
NONE.
It was made into holy writ by the "gay" movement because it was POLITICALLY EXPEDIENT.
But that does NOT make it true.
Which is why the academy on the whole does not support it.
I'm talking about folks like historian Jonathan Ned Katz, who says
And Professor Joan Roughgarden of Stanford University as quoted in Scientific American in 2008:
While in the same article, sociologist Eric Anderson of the University of Bath in England says
[And, he adds, in humans,]
the categories of gay and straight are socially constructed.
And you see, that presents you with a problem.
Cause now you've got to claim that not only is Bill Weintraub lying, but so is Richard Horton and Jonathan Katz and Joan Roughgarden and Eric Anderson.
Now you've got not only to refute Bill, but Richard and Jonathan and Joan and Eric too.
Not to mention John Ibson, whose book Picturing Men (it's on the Heroes Reading List) also greatly calls into question the idea of male-male as a condition.
And his book is long and scholarly.
So now you've got not only to refute Bill, but Richard and Jonathan and Joan and Eric and John Ibson -- and the many scholars, such as Michel Foucault, he cites -- too.
That's a problem.
Especially because none of those people are lying.
They're all telling the Truth.
How about when I talk about erotically-bonded Warrior pairs in that same ancient culture of Heroic Nude Testicular Masculinity?
Is that True?
Yes, and there are many sources for that, summed up by renowned classicist J E Lendon in his book Soldiers and Ghosts: A History of Battle in Classical Antiquity, in which he says
A peculiar quality of the Theban Sacred Band helps to explain this wider move towards training: the corps of three hundred, we are told, was made up of one hundred and fifty pairs of male lovers. Among the reported advantages of this arrangement was that of exaggerating competition among the warriors: lovers competed with each other and dreaded to be shamed in the presence of those they loved. Once again the competitive ethos of the hoplite emerges. But using such relationships between men as a font of military excellence is a transparent borrowing from Sparta, where such relationships were institutionalized, played a large role in the training of boys, and were thought to contribute to bravery in combat. At Sparta lover and beloved stood beside each other in the hoplite line; before battle the Spartans sacrificed to Eros, to love.
Prof Lendon uses the word "peculiar," but this was not at all peculiar -- it was done, for example, at Athens too.
This grave marker, depicting such a Warrior pair, is from Athens:
Also from Athens is the most famous literary discussion of "an army of Lovers," that in Plato's Symposium, as is Plato's famous statement, regarding Warrior-Lovers Achilles and Patroklos, that
There is no Valour more respected by the Gods than this which comes of Manly Love.
There is no Areté more respected by the Gods than this which comes of Eros.
So, buddy -- you've got a problem.
Because I'm not lying.
In every particular I'm telling the Truth.
And you can't continue to ignore that Truth without doing terrible and ongoing damage to your life.
Your one sweet precious life.
Not your manly life because you don't have that.
But what little life you have -- is being damaged by your willful disregard of the Truth.
And it is the Truth.
It's not a truth or some truth or one truth which is different from another person's truth and both truths are somehow valid.
NO.
It doesn't work that way.
Either this
is the Truth -- or it's a lie.
And it's not a lie.
It's the historic Truth.
As is classicist KJ Dover's statement that the Greeks didn't consider male-male incompatible with concurrent male-female or marriage.
That too is the historic Truth.
Zeus was the father, by the way, and via Hera, of Ares.
Zeus had children -- many children -- both with Hera and with other Women.
KJ Dover: The Greeks didn't consider male-male incompatible with concurrent male-female or marriage.
That too, and like I said, is the historic Truth.
As is the premium put on male-male Fidelity by the ancients.
And their contempt for anal.
It's all True.
It's the Truth.
And you're living a lie -- a series of lies.
And while I don't care what you do with your puny and putative male lives, I WILL NOT allow you to get away with thinking that your lies are the Truth.
They're not.
You know it's interesting, in that regard, that whenever the NY Times talks about global warming, it notes that such warming is due to "human agency" -- that is, the actions and activities of human beings.
But whenever the Times talks about AIDS, it NEVER, these days, mentions "human agency."
Somehow or other, it appears, gay-identified males are at one moment HIV-negative, and the next HIV-positive.
You can think of it as a sort of immaculate infection.
Except that it isn't.
Like "gay girl in Damascus," it's another politically expedient lie --
told by the Times because it doesn't want anal and promiscuity to get in the way of "gay" marriage and the demise of Men.
Nevertheless, it is a lie.
Each and every day, minimally, 73 gay-identified males infect 73 other gay-identified males with HIV -- by fucking them up the ass.
The ass, when penetrated, is extremely vulnerable.
The males get fucked, the males get infected.
That's what happens.
That's the TRUTH.
Now, we saw that at the Palaistra, both body and mind were trained and exercised.
Guys learned how to Fight --
and they learned how to Think.
Here's an example of their Thinking.
It's from the philosopher and moralist Plutarch, writing ca 100 AD, and addressing, in an essay titled "On Listening," a young guy named Nicander -- who's probably about sixteen, and has just assumed the toga virilis -- the garb of Manhood:
Now absence of control, which some of the young men, for want of education, think to be freedom, establishes the sway of a set of masters, harsher than the teachers and attendants of childhood, in the form of the desires, which are now, as it were, unchained.[1]
. . .
You, on the other hand, have often been told that following God and listening to reason are identical; so bear in mind that for intelligent people, the passage from childhood to adulthood is not a change of rules, but an abandoment of ruler; instead of someone whose services are hired and bought, they accept in their lives the divine leadership of reason -- and it is only those who follow reason who deserve to be regarded as free.
For they alone, having learned to wish for what they ought, live as they wish; but in untrained and irrational impulses and actions there is something ignoble, and changing one's mind many times involves but little freedom of will.
So, we have:
"absence of control, which some of the young men, for want of education, think to be freedom, establishes the sway of a set of masters, harsher than the teachers and attendants of childhood, in the form of the desires, which are now, as it were, unchained.[1]" --
And there's a footnote -- [1] -- which, no matter which translation you use, always references:
[1] Plato's Republic Book VIII, sections 560 passim
What does Plato say in the Republic, Book VIII, etc, which was written ca 400 BC?
Well, Plato's talking about a young male who's a hedonist, a pleasure-seeker, and he says
So -- the young pleasure-seeker refuses to face the fact that some pleasures are good and honorable, and others base -- instead insisting that "they are all alike and to be equally esteemed."
In other words, it's all sex and it's all good.
But it isn't, because you'll notice that again there's a footnote, [1], at the word "base," and here's what the footnote says:
The Gorgias is another book by Plato.
What happens at Gorg. 494 E?
Well, that's where, in the course of a debate, Sokrates takes out the analists.
Here's the debate -- the hot-headed hedonist is a guy named Callicles, and he's debating Sokrates:
Socrates. Come now, let me tell you another parable:
Consider if each of the two lives, the temperate and the licentious, might be described by imagining that each of the two men had a number of jars; the one man has his jars sound and full, one of wine, another of honey, and a third of milk, besides others filled with other things, and the sources which fill them are scanty and difficult, and he can only obtain them with a great deal of hard toil. Well, one man, when he has taken his fill, neither draws any more nor troubles himself a jot, but remains at ease on that score. The other, in like manner, can procure sources, though not without difficulty; but his vessels are leaky and unsound, and night and day he is compelled to fill them constantly, and if he pauses for a moment, he is in an agony of extreme distress. If such is the nature of each of the two lives, do you say that the licentious man has a happier one than the orderly? Do I not convince you that the opposite is the truth?
Callicles. You do not convince me, Socrates, for the one who has filled himself has no longer any pleasure left; and this, as I was just now saying, is the life of a stone: he has neither joy nor sorrow after he is once filled; but a pleasant life consists rather in the largest possible amount of inflow.
Soc. Well then, if the the inflow be large, must not that which runs away be of large amount also, and the holes for such outflow be of great size?
Cal. Certainly.
Soc. The life which you are now depicting is not that of a dead man,
or of a stone, but of a plover [a bird thought to drink and then to eject the liquid]; you mean that he is to be hungering and eating?
Cal. Yes.
Soc. And he is to be thirsting and drinking?
Cal. Yes, that is what I mean; he is to have all his desires about
him, and to be able to live happily in the gratification of them.
Soc. Capital, excellent; go on as you have begun, and have no shame; I, too, must disencumber myself of shame: and first, will you tell me whether you include itching and scratching, provided you have enough of them and pass your life in scratching, in your notion of happiness?
Cal. What a strange being you are, Socrates! a regular stump-orator.
Soc. That was the reason, Callicles, why I scared Polus and Gorgias,
until they were too modest to say what they thought; but you will
not be too modest and will not be scared, for you are such a manly fellow. And now, answer my question.
Cal. I answer, that even the scratcher would live pleasantly.
Soc. And if pleasantly, then also happily?
Cal. To be sure.
Soc. But what if the itching is not confined to the head? Shall I
pursue the question? And here, Callicles, I would have you consider
how you would reply if consequences are pressed upon you, especially
if in the last resort you are asked, whether the life of a catamite is
not terrible, shameful, and wretched? Or would you venture to say, that they too are happy, if they only get enough of what they want?
Cal. Are you not ashamed, Socrates, of introducing such topics
into the argument?
Soc. Well, my fine friend, but am I the introducer of these
topics, or he who says without any qualification that all who feel
pleasure in whatever manner are happy, and who admits of no
distinction between good and bad pleasures? And I would still ask,
whether you say that pleasure and good are the same, or whether
there is some pleasure which is not a good?
~translated by Jowett and Lamb
So: Sokrates asks, "Is there some pleasure which is not a good?"
And the word "catamite" in the original Greek is kinaidos, that is, one who is anally passive, and/or who participates in anal penetration.
That is, an analist.
"Is there some pleasure which is not a good?"
Anal.
The life of an analist, says Sokrates, is "terrible, shameful, and wretched."
You see, ancient Men were taught to think.
And to think logically.
Through exercise and training.
They were taught that just as their bodies had to be exercised and trained, so did their minds.
Plato and Sokrates demonstrate, through logic, that a Virtuous life, a life in which the passions are controlled by Reason -- which is a Divine attribute -- is superior to one in which passions and desires run rampant and thus rule the individual's life.
As Plutarch -- writing 500 years after Plato -- says:
Now absence of control, which some of the young men, for want of education, think to be freedom, establishes the sway of a set of masters, harsher than the teachers and attendants of childhood, in the form of the desires, which are now, as it were, unchained.
Is he right?
Well, as I'm writing this, a Democratic member of the Congress has been forced to resign for sending out pix of his penis over the internet.
He serves in the same Congress in which there's a Republican senator who was, at one time, a Playgirl model.
Playgirl is a magazine whose stated and indeed only function is to excite the masturbatory fantasies of women -- and, of course, men.
Another Republican senator, a stalwart of the religious right and member of a secretive Congressional Christian group, has had to resign because of a particularly unsavory combination of adultery and bribery.
Specifically, it was learned that his parents gave $96,000 to his girlfriend's husband -- as hush money.
While a former Democratic presidential candidate is about to go on trial for actions he took while involved in an affair with a female staffer -- who bore his baby.
She bore the baby while the guy's wife was, literally, dying of cancer.
While there's a current Republican presidential candidate who walked out on his wife while she too had cancer.
He walked out on her for a younger woman.
Now absence of control, which some of the young men, for want of education, think to be freedom, establishes the sway of a set of masters, harsher than the teachers and attendants of childhood, in the form of the desires, which are now, as it were, unchained.
Basically, our entire society is now hedonist.
Hedonists run -- rule -- our country.
But they themselves are being ruled by their unchained desires -- their masters.
In the ancient world, in those same Palaistrai with their centralized Fight Pits, Men were taught -- they were trained -- to control their desires.
And to put Virtue, informed by Reason, ahead of pleasure.
Of course, they didn't all do that.
BUT AT LEAST THAT'S WHAT THEY WERE TAUGHT.
You're living in a society run, as I said, by hedonists.
Analism is a form of hedonism.
"It's all sex and it's all good."
"If it feels good, do it!"
Translation:
If it feels good to fuck a guy -- a fellow human being -- up the ass, and fill his ass and thus his bloodstream with HIV -- do it!
Don't worry about whether that might be ignoble or base or immoral -- or homicidal -- just do it!
Hedonism does NOT like Manliness.
Because Manliness is about Virtue.
Altruism.
Self-sacrifice.
That's why you're in so much trouble.
That's why you're doing so badly in our society, and will continue to do badly.
Look -- let's talk about the word "Manly" for a moment:
A few lines further on in his essay, Plutarch says to Nicander, who's been raised in an educated home,
~ trans by Goodwin
Goodwin was writing in 1874.
Is his use of the word "manly" some nineteenth-century fluke?
No.
Because this translation, dating from 1992, repeats the word:
. . . it is as your friend and relative that you ought to approach philosophy, which is the only thing which invests young people with the *manly*, perfect, and orderly attire that truly stems from reason.
~ trans by Waterfield
Mr Waterfield, wanting no doubt to be politically correct, says "young people"; and to be fair, Plutarch had daughters of whom he was quite fond, and a wife whom he clearly loved -- but -- the word is "manly":
"Philosophy . . . alone can array young Men in the MANLY and truly perfect adornment that comes from Reason."
I don't know for sure because I don't have access to the Greek in this instance, but I think, and given the word Manly, Goodwin's translation, in referencing young Men rather than young people, makes a lot more sense -- and I think that's what Plutarch intended:
He's addressing a young man, a young man who's just assumed the toga virilis, and he's saying
"Philosophy . . . alone can array young Men in the MANLY and truly perfect adornment that comes from Reason."
The toga virilis, in other words, is a nice symbol of Manhood, but ONLY PHILOSOPHY can array young Men in the Manly and truly perfect adornment that comes from REASON.
And that's certainly what's the ancients believed.
Just as the trained body -- the body which knew how to Fight -- was a Manly body and the ONLY truly Manly body;
so the trained mind -- the mind which knows how to Think -- is a Manly mind and the ONLY truly Manly mind.
And, according to Plato and Plutarch, thinking in particular, and in the instance which concerns us, means being able to differentiate between the necessary and beneficial pleasures -- and those pleasures, or what some take to be "pleasures," which not only do no good, but actually are very harmful.
So there's Virtue -- and there's vice.
Vice is vicious, vice is harmful.
And true freedom does not consist of being controlled by one's desires, but of accepting, says first Plato and then Plutarch, "the divine leadership of reason -- and it is only those who follow reason who deserve to be regarded as free."
In the ancient Greek world, a world dedicated to Virtue and informed by Reason, Men recognized that male-male was an intrinsic part of a Man's life.
They didn't lie about male-male or pretend it didn't exist or try to hide it.
They recognized, and their greatest poets and artists and philosophers said publically, that male-male was core to a Man's life.
But they also recognized that male-male, like any other pleasure, like any other passion, had to be controlled.
That it had to serve Virtue.
Thus they gave male-male a military function -- because Martial Valour was to them the essence of Virtue.
They required that male lovers be Faithful -- even unto death.
So: The ancient Greeks required that male lovers be Faithful -- even unto death.
And they generated cultural messages -- such as this vase-painting -- to get that point across.
And they made the Palaistrai -- where Men trained their bodies for battle in both athletics and war through wrestling, boxing, and pankration -- the focal point of male-male romance.
Lovers were to compete -- in Courage.
(And for those of you who don't remember this, I suggest you re-read The Secret Craft of Warriorhood; and, of course, AGOGE V: A Nation of Heroes: State-Education in Sparta.)
What's this have to do with Mike?
A lot.
Mike's been lied to -- all his life -- about male-male.
He's lived in denial of his own normal and natural -- and very strong -- male-male desires.
And he's never been presented with a workable model for male-male.
When he looked at the world, what he saw was male-female marriage and analist promiscuity --
and that's all he saw --
until he discovered The Man2Man Alliance.
This is from Mike:
I saw this letter from another Warrior that you posted:
This is a letter I received a few weeks back -- the writer is a straight-identified guy who lives in a Southern state:
I found this site by accident. I got curious. I can't get enough of it. I did cock to cock a couple of times on campouts as a teen. I had a Frottage 22 years ago with a college buddy after too many drinks. We never spoke of it again but I've never been able to forget it. Now I'm 45, married, 2 kids. Love em. But I've always wanted to do this again.
I'm a masculine, southern man who lives in the Bible Belt. You can imagine the local taboos involved. I could care less about anal sex. Creeps me out. I would be paranoid about HIV anyway. I have a family to protect.
I live in a very masculine world. Hunting, fishing, golf. I really like all of that. I like masculine guys.
I spend a lot of time with those guys ... but none would be approachable.
I'd like to use your website to get some of them familiar with this idea. I have to tell you I get aroused in a big way knowing there are others who have the same feelings.
I figured there were others but I didn't know how to approach it. Now I can. I don't understand why, but the night after I viewed your site for the first time, my wife and I had the best sex in a long time. I came like a trojan.
Anyway, I would guess there are a lot a guys in my position that don't have options. I just have to figure out how to be discreet. A great website. I get hard every time I see it.
I have to tell you: The idea that regular guys could be intimate with regular guys aroused me more than anything I could have seen.
Thanks,
Joe
Bill, this is EXACTLY how I feel. I remember that one [Frot] encounter as a 17 year old kid and it was very powerful. I've been reading your site now for 4 months. I had the same intense experience with sex with my
wife too. I think I'm more complete as a man. I just keep coming back to the site, reading the posts and reflecting. I feel just like Joe, and yes, I do get aroused reading this site. Joe is right - the idea that a regular guy like me could be intimate with other regular guys does arouse me more than anything.
The way I grew up, to survive, I developed a false self, a self in denial. In therapy, we dismantle the denial and slowly the real self comes out. I am finding that my real self is pretty cool. Being attracted to other men is pretty cool.
. . .
I definately don't feel any pressure from you or NW. Both of you have been really helpful giving me
a lot to think about. It's a HUGE paradigm shift for me. But accepting that I have same sex attraction
is liberating. It really hard work to stay in denial. When you feel a feeling and admit and accept
it, it feels really good.
What's a paradigm shift?
It's a shift in cultural values, in norms, in one's model for how and why to live.
Source: Thomas Kuhn -- The Structure of Scientific Revolutions.
Our work in the Alliance is about paradigm shift -- about changing the culture.
And you will either help with that work -- or you will die.
Psychically and spiritually, and physically too.
And that's all I have to say to you.
I'm disgusted with you and sick of trying to talk to you.
You're stupid selfish and stingy but above all -- you're stupid.
You steadfastly -- and it's the only matter in which you are steadfast -- refuse to recognize that which is in your own narrow self-interest.
That is exactly and precisely what gay-identified males did in the 1970s.
And in the 1980s and 90s they DIED by the hundreds of thousands.
You're already spiritually dead.
Don't think you can't be physically dead too.
Because you can be and you will be.
This is Mike's core statement:
It takes a lot of guts to admit that you are attracted to guys. Most of us are in such denial. Whenever I would get a hard cock when I saw a big muscular
guy I would pretend that I didn't feel it. What you end up doing is turning off your feelings. But once you admit to the feelings you begin to realise that you are just like every other guy. It's really liberating to admit this and to feel so normal.
And I hope the truth of that statement will stay with Mike literally for the rest of his life.
So -- Mike says,
That's right.
It also takes a lot of guts, in our society, to admit you're into Fighting.
And it takes guts to say you're into Frot.
But -- what's your choice?
Mike:
Right.
You begin killing yourself.
Actually, what you do is continue the process of killing -- which was started by the majority culture.
You internalize the norms of the majority culture, you turn off your feelings, and you die.
So -- you have to Fight Back.
Recently I got a letter from a college kid who's got a post up in Frot Club and said he needed to change his email address because he'd posted looking for a Frot partner on other sites -- and he'd gotten a ton of analist hate mail -- plus a virus.
I wrote back and said -- What were those sites?
The other guys -- your fellow Men -- in the Alliance -- need to know.
He refused to tell me.
I'll call the kid "Joe."
Bill:
Joe, in some way or another you need to fight back
against people who send you that sort of hate mail and call you homophobic and a
hater and so forth.
If you don't, you're going to receive that sort of mail and be in the
sort of denigrated and minority position you are now -- all your life.
Just the way it is.
Plus, you know, those people are dead wrong.
And it's easy to expose the fallacies in their thinking.
That's why they get so upset and make all those personal attacks.
Because they can't refute what we say.
Once again, Joe, you need to fight back.
Joe:
I see what you mean, but I'm so busy with school and work that I don't have time to spend convincing a few dogmatic guys that I have the right to make my own choices about my body, lol.
Bill:
Joe, if you don't make time to fight -- and it's lot more than a few
-- dogmatic analists --
you'll soon find that you do NOT have the right to make your own
choices about your own body.
Those choices will be taken from you --
I guarantee it.
That's the direction in which society is moving -- and it will keep going.
Joe:
I'm willing to take the time to invest in a guy that's into frot because I need that in my life.
Bill:
Right -- that's what I call "a private solution" -- and in my very
bitter experience -- it never works out.
What you're trying to do Joe is evade and escape what I call "the
life of your time."
But it cannot be evaded.
You'll find that these societal scrictures about top and bottom and
"gay" and "straight" and male and female -- will invade your most
private moments, your most private solutions --
and take them from you.
I then asked Joe to consider posting about his experiences in Personal Stories.
And guess what?
I never heard back from him.
Not a word.
Do you wonder that I get disgusted with you?
Or warn that your future isn't bright?
I thank both Mike and NW, who are true Warriors.
As I said before, there are far too few like them.
The vast majority of you aren't warriors, you're not men, you're not anything.
And you'll suffer accordingly.
Bill Weintraub
June 20, 2011
© All material Copyright 2011 by Bill Weintraub. All rights reserved.
Reply from:
Re: Fight the Fight Now! Part I: It takes guts to admit you're attracted to guys
6-21-2011
Hi Warrior Bill,
I just read the new copy of this posting and the original was good, but this is great! So "Part 2" should be amazing! There were a couple of things that really stood out. Mike said "I'm now in a place to be a Kickass Warrior" and "I could NEVER have done this 4 years ago. I just wasn't ready. Now I am" and you Bill said "You're now ready to be what God and Nature have always intended you to be: A WARRIOR."
I am taken back to the time I sent you my first E mail "Time to be a Warrior?" after YEARS of fighting with my "Church" self. Like Mike I was liberated and Yes it was Time to be a Warrior, that is a WARRIOR! -- and like Mike it really is the best thing that has happened to me. Yes it takes guts to admit you're attracted to guys, and no I am not "gay" nor do I do anal. It will take a long hard struggle to bring about the social changes that we crave. So we need to (as WARRIOR Mike said) Fight the Fight Now!
With Warrior Love
Brian
Reply from:
Re: Fight the Fight Now! Part I: It takes guts to admit you're attracted to guys
6-22-2011
Warrior Brian,
To reply:
Yes, to be what I REALLY SHOULD BE, as opposed to a contrived, pseudo, half a man, is what the Alliance helps develop. It really helps to get past the denial and admit feelings that were stuffed for YEARS and then to be free to be a real, authentic man, that is what a Warrior is all about. Dismantling the denial is very hard work. There are programs out there that help, such as 12 Step programs, for men who just can't get rid of the denial. 12 Step programs work really well.
Yes, it is time to FIGHT THE FIGHT NOW. Things are not getting any better. The "gay culture" is very destructive for all men. Bill has spent his life trying to bring about change. He needs our support now more than ever, especially with donations.
Mike
Reply from:
Re: Fight the Fight Now! Part I: It takes guts to admit you're attracted to guys
6-23-2011
Hey Warriors Mike and Brian, thank you both!
Mike is right that the Alliance needs support now more than ever, especially with donations.
And in terms of what Mike has brought up, we also
need Regional Chapters.
Because before we can have a 12 Step program or any other program --
we need to have people.
Actual people.
And, sad to say, our guys are nowhere near doing Regional Chapters.
They're far too closeted -- and, as Mike would rightly say, in too much denial.
Nevertheless, Mike -- and if you're willing to talk about it -- what
sort of 12 Step program were you / are you involved with?
Because my understanding of 12 Step programs is that they were orginally
designed to deal with addiction -- AA, NA.
And what we're trying to deal with is, to my way of thinking, cultural
-- analism, heterosexism.
Those are cultures with belief systems and norms.
Now, you could argue that there's a culture of addiction.
And that may well be.
But -- and please understand, Mike, I don't want to cut you off or stifle
you -- but -- in what way do you think we could make use of 12 Step
theory and/or practice in dealing with our two groups of males --
One coming out of analism -- which is a complex belief system built
around anal, promiscuity, and effeminacy;
and the other out of heterosexism.
Also Mike --
what I want our guys to do, in those Regional Chapters, is choose a
local Fight School -- and then all go there to train.
Train together.
Because I think for a lot -- most of the guys who visit the sites --
training is actually more important than talking.
They can talk after they train.
We did that in our self-defense course way back in the early 80s.
But the training is more important.
The training puts the guy in touch with his Male Aggressive Power.
It's experential.
And that too is why those Fight Pits were core to the Greek Fight School.
Because -- the Greeks were highly competitive.
They competed with their bodies -- they competed with their minds.
Everything they did was a competition.
They could have, after all, as their "academic" education developed,
moved it out of the Palaistra.
They didn't.
The Palaistra was the place where they went to Wrestle -- with their
bodies -- and their minds.
Which means that they developed not just physical muscle -- but
intellectual muscle.
All for now.
Bill
Reply from:
Re: Fight the Fight Now! Part I: It takes guts to admit you're attracted to guys
6-23-2011
Hey Bill,
Wow, you've given me, again, a lot to think about.
I belong to ACOA, Adult Children of Alcoholics. It's geared to anyone who, as a child, experienced
family dysfunction as a result of drug addiction. It also serves adult children of dysfunctional families,
which there are many flavors.
There are over 600 chapters throughout the world, 500 in the US alone.
The program is FANTASTIC. They meet regularly, do the 12 Steps as well as have open sessions
where people, from all backgrounds, discuss what happened to them as children and slowly,
by listening, begin to deal with the denial of how they grew up and very slowly, begin to heal.
In my case, I was in deep denial. I had enormous anger that I stuffed for years. ACOA helped me
face the horrors of what happened. I also met with a therapist who helped me work through all
the issues that I had to deal with once the denial began to dissolve.
Five years ago I was a mess. I started going and it was 95% take and 5% give. Today its 95% give and 5% take.
I can't say enough good things about ACOA and the 12 Steps.
The 12 Step program is designed around issues with dysfunctional families, a cousin of the AA programs.
I was thinking how this could possibly help the guys coming to the site.
But I think you're right, they need to join fight school.
That is so critical.
We can talk and talk and talk. In the end, like me, they need to FEEL, in their BALLS, the aggression that they have on the mat in fight school.
By going regularly they come in touch with this, over and over.
For me, fight school is AWESOME. Just the thought of it makes me hard. I can get all my aggression out, let it out, and it feels SO GOOD. It's scary and cool at the same time. The body contact, with another guy my size and strength, makes me feel like I'm in another world. I think, because of the tech world that we men live in, that we men have lost contact with our aggressive selves. Fight school puts us back in the same place as the ancient Greeks did, the only diifference it that its not nude. Big difference, but we're getting
there. I'd like it to be nude, but we're at least moving in the right direction.
I guess the trick is how to get the guys to commit to fight school. Like I've said earlier Bill, I've been through 5 years of therapy and most of the denial is gone, so for me I just checked them out and joined one. I think for many of the guys the denial is actually getting in the way of them making the commitment of fight school. It stops them. I've seen it over and over again in ACOA. These people are in such denial that they can't move. Sort of like a deer in headlights. They just stare at you. Can't move. THAT is what denial
can do and boy o boy that was me 5 years ago. Today, with the denial gone, I'm free.
The book that the ACOA organisation uses for the 12 Step progam is called:
The 12 Steps for Adult Children
It can be purchased through the ACOA organization: http://www.adultchildren.org
It would have to be modified for the Warriors. At times, it tends to be soft and flowery, which for fight school guys used to blood, sweat and cum, would be a turnoff.
I'll give the regional chapters some thought too.
Thanks Bill again for all your work with this program. It has done wonders for me.
Mike.
Reply from:
Re: Fight the Fight Now! Part I: It takes guts to admit you're attracted to guys
6-24-2011
Wow -- thanks Mike!
Really great!
Let's take a look:
Good!
I understand.
There are over 600 chapters throughout the world, 500 in the US alone.
The program is FANTASTIC. They meet regularly, do the 12 Steps as well as have open sessions where people, from all backgrounds, discuss what happened to them as children and slowly, by listening, begin to deal with the denial of how they grew up and very slowly, begin to heal.
In my case, I was in deep denial. I had enormous anger that I stuffed for years. ACOA helped me face the horrors of what happened. I also met with a therapist who helped me work through all the issues that I had to deal with once the denial began to dissolve.
Five years ago I was a mess. I started going and it was 95% take and 5% give. Today its 95% give and 5% take.
I can't say enough good things about ACOA and the 12 Steps.
Mike, that's great!
Again, I understand.
Good!
Please keep thinking.
Because your insights about denial are useful.
VERY useful.
That is so critical.
We can talk and talk and talk. In the end, like me, they need to FEEL, in
their BALLS, the aggression that they have on the mat in fight school.
Right!
MEN need to FEEL, in their BALLS, the AGGRESSION they have on the mat and in the ring -- at Fight School.
Right!
And a very important point:
Men have to Fight and train regularly, over and over, so that that they come in touch and stay in touch with their Aggression and their Male Aggressive Power.
Right!
And really well-said:
"scary and cool at the same time"
YES!!!!!
Very well-said!
Extremely well-said!
And that's the core point Mike -- and everybody else.
"The body contact, with another guy my size and strength, makes me feel like I'm in another world."
You feel that way Mike because --
You are in another world.
You're in the Warrior Kosmos.
Which is where you belong, which is where, as I said earlier, God and Nature intended you to be.
Guys -- I spell "Kosmos" with a "K" because it's a Greek word and that's how the Greeks spelled it -- with a Kappa.
"Kosmos" in ancient Greek means both Universe -- and Order.
By "Order," the Greeks mean *moral* order.
Greek thinkers like Sokrates and Plato believed that the Universe was an essentially moral place.
That it had to be.
In that they were opposed to the nihilists and hedonists of their day -- and of our day too.
I'll have a lot more to say about that in a forthcoming post.
But -- for now, the core point is that the Warrior Kosmos is where Men belong.
It's natural to them.
Being Aggressive among other Aggressive Men is natural to them.
It's Warrior.
And Warrior is what Men were meant to be.
The ruler of the Warrior Kosmos is the Warrior God.
Who holds the scepter -- skapton to the Spartans -- of Manhood.
The Warrior God -- whom I call, as did the Greeks, Ares -- bestows Manhood upon His Warriors.
That's His gift to them.
He's the Divine Guardian of Warrior Spirit -- of Fighting Spirit -- the Divine Guardian of the Manhood of Men.
Once again, the Warrior God rules the Warrior Kosmos, which is
the Kosmos of Manhood.
And that's where Men have to live.
Men live in the Warrior Kosmos, in the Kosmos of Manhood.
Take that away from them or take them out of it -- and they shrivel.
They de-flate.
They die.
That's why the feminists and the analists are so eager to do that --
because it destroys Men.
So, and again, Men need the Warrior God.
They need to live in His presence.
Now -- in terms of the name Ares:
I keep pushing Ares because of His relationship to Areté.
Areté is the Greek Virtus -- it's Martial Courage, Manly Excellence -- Manhood, Valour, Prowess.
And Men today need to reclaim their Manly Excellence -- their Manhood, their Valour, their Prowess.
Which come from Ares.
Again, the word Areté derives from Ares.
Areté itself comes from Ares.
Ares is the God and Guardian of Warrior Spirit.
In Greek, He's ho Theos andrikos polemikes aretes --
the Manly God of Warrior Excellence.
And, again, Men need to stay in His presence.
In order to thrive, Men need to live in the presence of Ares.
So Mike -- when you're at Fight School, among the Fighters, and actually Fighting, having, as you put it, "body contact with another guy your size and strength" -- you're in the presence of Ares -- and in the presence of Ares, you become a Man among Men.
Those are Men in the Presence of Ares.
Those are Men living in the Warrior Kosmos.
Which is a Moral Order.
When you go to Fight School, you join those Men.
You become part of a worldwide brotherhood -- a Warriorhood.
Here's Mike:
Yes.
And because of heterosexualization.
Heterosexualization, remember, is just an historical force.
In that sense, it's mindless.
But the *effect* of heterosexualization is to devalue Men and Manliness, while ceaselessly promoting women and -- effeminacy.
It's as my foreign friend says:
The heterosexual[ized] society cares only for women. It sees men only as a problematic group that comes in the way of what is called women's rights.
And Male Aggression is seen as problematic in the same way.
But, as my foreign friend points out,
"heterosexual spaces are themselves unnatural"
And that's correct Mike.
As we'll get to in Part II of this discussion, and as you and I have discussed, among mammals, same-sex and male-male is the rule -- not the exception.
Now, Mike -- you say:
"I think, because of the tech world that we men live in, that we men have lost contact with our aggressive selves."
While my foreign friend says:
"it was only through financial and technological power brought by industrialisation that the western society could create such an artificial unnatural heterosexual environment."
So -- you both recognize that technology has been a game-changer for Men -- and not in a good way.
What's needed then, is for MEN to take back their Lives -- and make sure that technology is serving THEM -- and not everyone BUT THEM.
Mike:
Okay.
What I would say is that Fight School replicates *some* of the elements of ancient Greek Fight Sport -- but nowhere near enough.
This is something I address in AGOGE I: The Spear-Points of Young Men Blossom There.
Please take a look at that post.
Because it's important that we understand that UFC and modern MMA is NOT ancient Greece.
Otherwise, we'll be expecting far too much of it and be very disappointed when our expectations aren't met.
It's fine to think in those terms -- but if we want it to be Nude and Sacred and about Manly Virtue --
WE ARE GOING TO HAVE TO MAKE IT THAT.
No one's going to do it for us.
We're going to have to do it ourselves.
Because only we have that vision.
Otherwise, groups like UFC, which are already very commercial, will just become more commercial and, eventually, corrupt -- which is what boxing and wrestling in today's world both are.
So -- today's Fight Schools are NOT the great nude religious-athletic schools and festivals of the Greeks.
But -- they could grow into that.
For that to happen, we have to share our vision of that -- with the Male Multitudes.
YOU -- not just Mike but all of you -- have to share your vision of that -- with your fellow MEN.
Good for you!
And also well-put.
That's what you do.
You don't spend a million years dithering and dallying.
You check out some schools and join one.
Oh yes!
Definitely.
The denial is terrible.
Absolutely.
Great!
The book that the ACOA organisation uses for the 12 Step progam is called:
The 12 Steps for Adult Children
It can be purchased through the ACOA organization: http://www.adultchildren.org
Okay.
So Mike -- look --
I can get that book --
but you have a lot more experience with this.
How about, as you have time, thinking about aspects of the program which you think would be relevant and helpful for your fellow Men.
Right.
And the spirituality would have to relate to the Warrior God.
Mike, what you wrote in your separate email about the Trinity is EXCELLENT! in that regard.
And Guys, this is what Mike wrote:
Since joining the Alliance, my Christian idea of God has changed radically.
I am a Catholic, so my basic beliefs are based in the Nicean Creed.
I do go to Mass on Sunday, but my beliefs, particularly with the Trinity, have changed.
As you may know, the theology of the Trinity is that there are 3 Persons in one God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
My belief today is:
God the Father, the Creator, really is a male God. Pure phallus in every way. Always was, always will be. Pure aggressive creative energy.
God the Son (Jesus) - Man in perfection. Arete. The Phallic God made Man. My Warrior God. I try very hard to be in His Presence.
The Holy Spirit - The manly, aggressive love between the Father and the Son.
This belief has been developing over time. The Alliance has solidified it.
And Guys, Mike's is a good example of the way a Man can, starting from his traditional Faith, come to his own conceptualization of -- and build a relationship with -- the Warrior God.
You'll notice that Mike says that Jesus is "My Warrior God. I try very hard to be in His Presence."
That's excellent!
Here's Mike again:
Good!
Mike -- and anyone else -- if you're going to do that -- please be sure to read the Regional Chapters page.
Mike
Thank you Mike.
You're a true Warrior.
But as I keep saying, there are far too few of you.
How about some of you joining Mike in Warriorhood.
Instead of being such constant and hopeless and helpless wusses and femmys and failures.
Do something.
Before your life is forever lost.
Mike began a process five years ago of reclaiming his life.
And now he's found the Alliance and he's in Fight School.
And what does he say?
"The body contact, with another guy my size and strength, makes me feel like I'm in another world."
And that other world is the Warrior World.
It's the world in which he's wanted to be -- all his Manly Life.
And now he's there.
Where are you?
Mike says he was in "deep denial."
And that "Dismantling the denial is very hard work."
But -- there's a pay-off to all that hard work:
Mike is now FREE to be a real, authentic MAN.
Which is what a Warrior is all about.
I've never told you that it would be easy for you to become a Man.
I've never said that.
Instead I've cited ancient concepts like that of ponos: endurance, hard work.
And quoted parables like that of Herakles at the Crossroads of Virtue and Vice.
Which says -- it's hard work to become a Man.
Mike has done that hard work.
And now he's where he wants to be.
Where are you?
And what are you doing?
Bill Weintraub
June 24, 2011
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It was my own innate understanding of the essentially Combative and Aggressive nature of Men, and my own instinctual relating of that to the testicles, which produced those fantasies and gave them so much power in my life.
In this Dialogue, written in the first century AD by Lucian but presenting an imagined conversation between the *sixth century BC* Athenian lawgiver Solon and a Scythian visitor to Athens named Anacharsis, we get some idea of what that training was like -- starting with Athenian kids, and then progressing to Spartan youth:
Anacharsis: And another thing, my dear Solon, why are those young men
acting in this way? Look, some of them are grappling and tripping each
other, others are choking their friends and twisting their limbs, rolling about in the mud and wallowing like pigs. But before they began to do this, I noticed they first took off their clothes, then put oil on themselves, and in a peaceful fashion took turns in rubbing each other. But now, experiencing some emotion I do not understand, they have lowered their heads and are crashing into each other, and butting their heads together like rams! And look! There is one who has just seized the other by the legs and thrown him down; then he flopped on him and did not allow him to get up, but shoved him down into the mud. And now he is finally twisting his legs around the other person's waist and choking him with his arm under his throat. The other is slapping him on the shoulder, trying to ask him, I suppose, not to choke him to death. They do not avoid getting covered with dirt even to save the oil, but on the contrary wipe it off, and smearing themselves with mud and rivers of perspiration they make themselves ridiculous, in my opinion, by sliding in and out of each other's hands like eels.
Others are acting in the same way in the open part of the courtyard.
However, these are not in the mud, but they have this deep sand in the pit which they sprinkle on themselves and each other, just like roosters, so that they cannot break out of their grasp, I imagine, since the sand decreases the slipperiness and offers a surer grip on a dry skin.
Others also covered with dust are standing up straight and striking and
kicking each other. See that one there! Poor fellow, he seems to be ready to spit out a mouthful of teeth considering how full of blood and sand his mouth is; he has got a blow to the jaw, as you can see for yourself. But the official there does not separate them and stop the fight -- at least I assume he is an official from his scarlet cloak. On the contrary he encourages them and cheers the one who struck that blow.
All around different people are all exercising: some raise their knees as if running, although they remain in the same place, and as they jump up they kick the air.
What I want to know is, what reason do they have for doing this? It seems to me these actions are almost insane, and there is no one who can easily persuade me that people who act like this have not lost all their senses.
[Solon explains that customs differ from one land to another. He then explains to Anacharsis what is happening.]
Solon: This place, dear Anacharsis, is what we call a gymnasion and it and is sacred to Lykeian Apollo. You can see his statue, leaning against a stele, holding his bow in his left hand. His right arm is bent above his head as if the artist were showing the God resting, as if he had completed some laborious task. As for those exercises in the nude, the one done in the mud is called wrestling. Those in the dust are also wrestling. Those who strike each other standing upright we call pankratiasts. We have other athletic events: we have contests in boxing, diskos, and the long jump, and the winner is considered superior to his fellows and takes the prize.
Anacharsis: These prizes of yours now; what are they?
Solon: At Olympia there is a crown of wild olive; at Isthmia, one of pine; at Nemea, one woven of celery; at the Pythian Games, laurel berries sacred to the god, and here at home at the Panathenaic Games, oil from olive trees which grow in the sacred precincts. What are you laughing at, Anacharsis? Do these prizes seem valueless to you?
[Solon explains the symbolic value of the prizes, justifies the pursuit of athletics, the education of the citizens. Then Anacharsis asks Solon to explain the government of Athens.]
Solon: It is not easy, my friend, to explain everything at once in concise form, but if you will take one thing at a time you will learn everything about our belief in the gods, as well as our attitude toward parents, marriage, or anything else.
I will now explain our theory about young men and how we treat them from the time when they begin to know the difference between right and wrong and are entering manhood and sustaining hardships, so that you may learn why we require them to undergo these exercises and force them to subject their bodies to toil, not just because of the athletic games and the prizes they may win there, for few of them have the ability to do that, but so that they may try to gain a greater good for the entire city and for themselves. For there is another contest set up for all good citizens and the crown is not made of pine nor of wild olive nor of celery, but is one which includes all of man's happiness, that is to say, freedom for each person individually and for the state in general: wealth, glory, pleasure in our traditional feast days, having the entire family safe from harm, and in a word, to have the best of all the blessings one could have from the gods.
All this happiness is woven into the crown to which I referred and is acquired in the contest to which these exhausting exercises lead.
[Solon goes into more detail about the training of young men and about the responsibility of the citizens.]
Solon: As for physical training, which you particularly wanted to hear about, we proceed as follows. When the boys reach an age when they are no longer soft and uncoordinated, we strip them naked. We do this because first, we think they should get used to the weather, learning to live with different seasons, so they are not bothered by the heat nor do they yield to the cold. Then we massage them with olive oil and condition the skin. For since we see that leather which is softened by olive oil does not easily crack and is much stronger, even though it is not alive, why should we not think that live bodies would benefit from oil? Next we have thought up different kinds of athletics and have appointed coaches for each type. We teach one how to box, another how to compete in the pankration, so that they can become used to hard work, to stand up to blows face to face, and not to yield through fear of injury.
This creates two valuable traits in our young men: it makes them brave in the face of danger and unsparing of their bodies, and it also makes them strong and vigorous. Those who wrestle and push against each other learn how to fall safely and spring up nimbly, to endure pushing, grappling, twisting, and choking, and to be able to lift their opponent off the ground. They are not learning useless skills but they get the one thing which is the first and most important thing in life: through this training their bodies become stronger and capable of enduring pain. There is another thing too which is not unimportant. From this training they acquire skills which they may need some day in war. For it is clear that if a man so trained grapples with an enemy, he will trip and throw him more quickly and if he is thrown he will know how to regain his feet as easily as possible. For we prepare our men, Anacharsis, for the supreme contest, war, and we expect to have much better soldiers out of young men who have had this training, that is, the previous conditioning and training of naked bodies, which makes them not only stronger and healthier, more agile and fit, but also causes them to outweigh their opponents.
You can see, I should think, the results of this, what they are like when armed, or even without weapons how they would strike terror in their enemies. Our troops are not fat, pale, and useless nor are they white and scrawny ... enervated by lying in the shade, simultaneously shivering and streaming with rivers of sweat, gasping beneath their helmets, particularly if the sun, as now, is burning with noontime heat. What use could people be who get thirsty and cannot endure dust; soldiers who panic if they see blood, who die of terror before they come close enough to throw their spears or to close with the enemy? But our troops have skin of high color, darkened by the sun, and faces like real men; they display great vigor, fire, and virility. They glow with good health, and are neither shriveled skeletons nor excessively heavy, but they have been carved to perfect symmetry; they have used up and sweated off useless and excess flesh, and that which is left is strong, supple, and free, and they vigorously keep this healthy condition. For just as the winnowers do with wheat, so our athletes do with their bodies, removing the chaff and the husks and leaving the grain in a clean pile.
Through training like this a man can't avoid being healthy and can stand up indefinitely under stress. Such a man would sweat only after some time, and he would seldom be seen to be ill. Suppose someone were to take two torches and throw one into the grain and the other into the straw and chaff -- you see, I am returning to the figure of the winnower. The straw, I think, would burst into flames much more quickly, but the grain would burn slowly with no large flames blazing up nor would it burn all at once, but it would smoulder slowly and eventually it too would be burned.
Neither disease nor fatigue could easily attack and overcome such a body or easily defeat it. For it has good inner resources which defend it against attacks from outside, so as not to let them in, neither does it admit the sun or the cold to its hurt. To avoid yielding to hardships, great vigor springs up within, something prepared long in advance and held in reserve for time of need. This vigor fills up at once and waters the body in a crisis and makes it strong for a long time. For the previous training in bearing strain and hardship does not weaken their strength but increases it, and when you fan it the fire burns stronger.
We train them to run, getting them to endure long distances as well as
speeding them up for swiftness in the sprints. This running is not done on a firm springy surface but in deep sand, where it is not easy to place one's foot forcefully and not to push off from it, since the foot slips against the yielding sand. We train them to jump over ditches, if they have to, or any other obstacles, and in addition we train them to do this even when they carry lead weights as large as they can hold. They also compete in the javelin throw for distance. In the gymnasium you also saw another athletic implement, bronze, circular, like a tiny shield with no bar or straps. You handled it as it lay there and expressed the view that it was heavy and hard to hold on to because it was so smooth. Well, they throw this up in the air both high and out, competing to see who can throw the longest and pass beyond the others. This exercise strengthens the shoulders and builds up the arms and legs.
As for this mud and dust, which originally seemed so amusing to you, my
friend, listen while I tell you why it is used. First, their fall will not be on unyielding dirt but they will fall safely on soft ground. Next, their slipperiness has to be greater when they sweat in the mud. You likened them to eels, but the facts are neither useless nor humorous: it adds not a little to strength of the sinews when they are forced to hold firmly to people in this condition when they are trying to slip away. Do not think it is easy to pick up a sweaty man in the mud, covered with oil and trying to get out of your arms. All these skills, as I said earlier, are useful in combat, if it were necessary to pick up a wounded friend and carry him easily to safety or to seize an enemy and bring him back in your arms. And for this reason we train them beyond what is necessary, so that when they have practiced hard tasks they may do smaller ones with much greater facility.
We believe the dust is used for the opposite reason than the oil is, that is, so that a competitor may not slip out of his opponent's grasp. For after they have been trained in the mud to hold fast to something which is escaping from them because of its slipperiness, they then practice escaping out of the arms of their opponent, no matter how impossibly firm they may be held. Furthermore when this dust is used liberally it checks the perspiration and makes their strength last longer and furnishes protection against harm from drafts which otherwise attack the body when the pores are open. Besides, the dust rubs off the accumulation of dirt and makes the skin gleam.
I should dearly like to stand one of those white-skinned fellows who live in the shade beside one of our boys who work out in the Lykeion, and after I had washed off the dust and the mud, ask you which one you would like to resemble. For I know that you would choose at first glance, without hesitation, even without putting either through any tests, the one which is solid and hard rather than soft, weak, and pale, because what little blood he has has been withdrawn into the interior of his body.
[Anacharsis then ridicules the idea that athletic training could be useful in war. Why not save your strength, he asks. Solon explains that strength cannot be saved like a bottle of wine; it must be constantly used.]
Anacharsis: I just don't understand what you said, Solon. It is too intellectual for me and requires a sharp mind and keen insight. But above all, tell me this, why, in the Olympic Games and at Isthmia and Delphi and elsewhere, where so many competitors, you say, assemble to see these young men compete, you never have a contest with weapons but you bring them before the spectators all naked and exhibit them getting kicked and punched, and then, if they have won, give them berries and wild olives? It would be worth knowing why you do this.
Solon: My dear Anacharsis, we do this because we think that their enthusiasm for athletics will increase if they see that those who excel at them are honored and are presented to crowds of Greeks by heralds. Because they are to appear stripped before so many people, they try to get into good condition, so that when they are naked they will not be ashamed, and each one works to make himself capable of winning. As for the prizes, as I said earlier, they are not insignificant: to be praised by the spectators, to be a recognized celebrity, and to be pointed out as the best of one's group. As a result of these prizes, many of the spectators who are of the right age for competition go away completely in love with courage and struggle. If someone should remove love of glory from our lives, what good would we ever achieve, Anacharsis, or who would strive to accomplish some shining deed? But now it is possible for you to imagine from these games what sort of men these would be under arms, fighting for fatherland and children and wives and temples, when they show so much desire for victory in competing for laurel berries and wild olives.
Furthermore, how would you feel if you should observe fights between
quails and between roosters here among us, and see the great interest
which is shown in them? Wouldn't you laugh, particularly if you should learn that we do this in accordance with our laws and all men of military age are instructed to be present and to see these birds fight until they are exhausted? But it is no laughing matter, for eagerness for danger creeps insensibly into their souls so that they try not to seem less courageous and bold than the roosters nor to give in too soon because of injury or fatigue or any other distress.
As for trying them in armed combat and seeing them receive wounds --
never! It is brutal and dreadfully wrong, and in addition it is economically unfeasible to destroy the bravest, whom we could better use against our enemies.
Since you tell me, Anacharsis, that you expect to travel to the rest of
Greece, if you get to Sparta, remember not to laugh at them nor think that they have no purpose when they compete in a theater, rushing together and striking each other, fighting over a ball, or when they go into a place surrounded by water [known as Plantanistas, or Plane-Tree Grove], choose up sides, and fight as if in actual war, although as naked as we Athenians are, until one team drives the other out of the enclosure into the water, the Sons of Herakles beating the Sons of Lykurgos or vice versa; after this contest there is peace and no one would strike another. In particular, do not laugh if you see them being whipped at the altar, streaming with blood, with mothers and fathers standing by, not at all bothered by what is happening but on the contrary threatening them if they do not hold up under the blows, urging them to bear up under the pain as long as possible, and to be strong under this hideous treatment. To tell the truth, many have died in these contests, not thinking it manly to yield before the eyes of their friends and relatives while they are still alive, no, not even to flinch. You will see honors paid to statues of people like this erected at public expense by the state of Sparta.
~ translated by Sweet.
The great Greek philosophers Sokrates and Plato spent a lot of time debating and defeating the hedonists of their day.
Plato wrote three very powerful books detailing that debate, beginning with the Protagoras, continuing in the Gorgias, and culminating in the Republic, one of the most important works of Western literature.
In the Gorgias in particular, Sokrates identifies hedonism with those who in his day, engaged in anal.
And since anal was proscribed -- forbidden -- by the Greeks, he uses that fact to defeat the hedonists.
Here's the debate -- the hot-headed hedonist is a guy named Callicles, and he's debating Sokrates:
Socrates. Come now, let me tell you another parable:
Consider if each of the two lives, the temperate and the licentious, might be described by imagining that each of the two men had a number of jars; the one man has his jars sound and full, one of wine, another of honey, and a third of milk, besides others filled with other things, and the sources which fill them are scanty and difficult, and he can only obtain them with a great deal of hard toil. Well, one man, when he has taken his fill, neither draws any more nor troubles himself a jot, but remains at ease on that score. The other, in like manner, can procure sources, though not without difficulty; but his vessels are leaky and unsound, and night and day he is compelled to fill them constantly, and if he pauses for a moment, he is in an agony of extreme distress. If such is the nature of each of the two lives, do you say that the licentious man has a happier one than the orderly? Do I not convince you that the opposite is the truth?
Callicles. You do not convince me, Socrates, for the one who has filled himself has no longer any pleasure left; and this, as I was just now saying, is the life of a stone: he has neither joy nor sorrow after he is once filled; but a pleasant life consists rather in the largest possible amount of inflow.
Soc. Well then, if the the inflow be large, must not that which runs away be of large amount also, and the holes for such outflow be of great size?
Cal. Certainly.
Soc. The life which you are now depicting is not that of a dead man,
or of a stone, but of a plover [a bird thought to drink and then to eject the liquid]; you mean that he is to be hungering and eating?
Cal. Yes.
Soc. And he is to be thirsting and drinking?
Cal. Yes, that is what I mean; he is to have all his desires about
him, and to be able to live happily in the gratification of them.
Soc. Capital, excellent; go on as you have begun, and have no shame; I, too, must disencumber myself of shame: and first, will you tell me whether you include itching and scratching, provided you have enough of them and pass your life in scratching, in your notion of happiness?
Cal. What a strange being you are, Socrates! a regular stump-orator.
Soc. That was the reason, Callicles, why I scared Polus and Gorgias,
until they were too modest to say what they thought; but you will
not be too modest and will not be scared, for you are such a manly fellow. And now, answer my question.
Cal. I answer, that even the scratcher would live pleasantly.
Soc. And if pleasantly, then also happily?
Cal. To be sure.
Soc. But what if the itching is not confined to the head? Shall I
pursue the question? And here, Callicles, I would have you consider
how you would reply if consequences are pressed upon you, especially
if in the last resort you are asked, whether the life of a catamite is
not terrible, shameful, and wretched? Or would you venture to say, that they too are happy, if they only get enough of what they want?
Cal. Are you not ashamed, Socrates, of introducing such topics
into the argument?
Soc. Well, my fine friend, but am I the introducer of these
topics, or he who says without any qualification that all who feel
pleasure in whatever manner are happy, and who admits of no
distinction between good and bad pleasures? And I would still ask,
whether you say that pleasure and good are the same, or whether
there is some pleasure which is not a good?
~translated by Jowett and Lamb
So: Socrates asks, "Is there some pleasure which is not a good?"
And the word "catamite" in the original Greek is kinaidos, that is, one who is anally passive, and/or who participates in anal penetration.
That is, an analist.
"Is there some pleasure which is not a good?"
Anal.
The life of an analist, says Sokrates, is "terrible, shameful, and wretched."
And Callicles doesn't dare disagree with him.
Because the cultural prohibition against anal is too severe.
I have no question that privately, Callicles thinks anal is okay.
That to his mind, "If it feels 'good,' do it!" and "It's all sex and it's all good!" -- are imperatives.
But he doesn't dare say so -- regarding anal.
Because again, the cultural prohibition against anal is too severe.
As it should be.
I would pin the guy (or start to pin him (we were both REALLY lean and as muscular as you could get at 14 years old, hard defined pecs and rock hard cut abs) and I'd be hard-pecs-2-hard-pecs with his warm lean body totally pressed against mine, sqeezing the dude so he couldn't get away, and I'd start to get this rock hard boner from it all as I felt the victory coming. Then I felt the the hard-on coming on really strong.
whenever I saw a . . . guy . . . my size,
all I wanted to do is to wrestle him buck naked,
with incredible aggression and force.
very
aggressively and full of force.
I
did have one Frot experience in high school with another close friend, an athlete,
and it was incredible! Very different from having sex with a woman though, very
aggressive and full of force. It was the sheer force of the pounding of the cocks
together that blew me away.
It was the sheer force of the pounding of the cocks
together that blew me away.
sex between men is something like an athletic competition and therefore is explosive
If so, his death may have seemed to have come none too soon, and been the lesser outrage of the two.
It was the sheer force of the pounding of the cocks
together that blew me away.
whenever I saw a . . . guy . . . my size,
all I wanted to do is to wrestle him buck naked,
with incredible aggression and force.
Where money is prized, Virtue is despised.
But, I kept coming
back. What convinced me of its truthfulness was all the postings by Naked Wrestler.
He is so damn honest and his life experiences were so close to mine that I could
not believe there was another guy out there who felt the same way I did.
Also, and I must say this, is that I have enormous respect for any guy that takes good care of his body and also practices martial arts. I've got a good friend of mine, a little younger than me (early 50's) who has been lifting for a long time and is also a black belt. When I am around him I feel so energized.
I am absolutely flattered that I connect with guys like myself. I feel like I've done some good with my life.
The few times I've grappled and wrestled with him I've been turned on by just the sight and touch of him. THE DUDE IS MUSCLED AND CUT!
I've also sparred with him a few times. I've been knocked against the wall and down to the ground when his well-trained fists connect with my face. This warrior
has then picked me up off the ground, hugged me and apologized for that. He is that much of a man. In fighting, you're going to get hurt once in a while. It's a
man thing.
But it is really the manly fight and self respecting toughness in him that is the turn on. Manliness is a man-magnet. THAT type of attraction for another Man is
NOT "gay." Gay is butt fucking and cowardly revulsion of manly characteristics. Fags are repulsed by real manliness. Manly attraction among men is Normal.
And that type of attraction you can feel right down in your ball sack and your penis.
I totally agree. I took my first boxing class 2 nights ago. I walked into the gym and a BJJ session was just finishing up. When I walked in, I felt like I was like a dry sponge
and water was being soaked up. The strong man smell was a reminder from my high school days when I worked out at a weight gym run by a retired firefighter. That smell brought back so many great memories. I had some concerns about my age (57) and if I would be out of place. This was a regular boxing training session, not just for beginners. So I joined a group of 5 other guys, easily half my age, and began to warm up. The trainer was terrific. He spent some time with me, showing me how to warm up and correcting my lack ot technique. I didn't feel out of place. The best part was putting on the gloves. When I put them on, it was such an experience. Like this is really happening to me. Then we started drills. The trainer was patient and I fell in with the other guys, slower at first and then picking up speed, going round robin. I felt really good. Lastly we paired off and did drills one on one. I was paired with one high school kid and then with two experienced fighers. They were powerful. I but I hung in there till the end. Only in the last 5 minutes did I began to feel tired in the delts. I really think all the rowing that I do (30 minutes every day on an erg) had me prepared for this. I walked out of there SO ENERGIZED. I felt like I died and went to heaven.
I have to seriously make the time to work out and now, attend fight school.
On noticing that Epigenes, one of his companions, was in poor condition, for a young man, [Sokrates] said: "You look as if you need exercise, Epigenes."
You have a unique way of hitting the bulls eye every time.
Yes, I need to go to fight school, especially when I travel. I need to figure out a way to do that.
My boxing is coming along and I feel really good about it.
NW made me realize that it really needs to be a big part of what I do.
All of his posts refer to wrestling being a big part of his life. I've learned a TON from his posts.
It makes me feel really complete, like I should have been doing this for a
long time and finally I'm doing something that completes me as a man.
The lifting and the fight school. Both together. It's really great.
Thanks Bill for the feedback and the kick in the ass. I needed that.
Mike:
Sure you can post these. I really think you guys are great!!
Your comments below:
Bill, this is really profound stuff for me. You are so right. Like NW says,
I can really feel it in my ball sack and my Mancock.
I feel sooooo complete with fight school and lifting.
I can tell you understand that. It's just SO COOL!!
Men who have sex with men: At the beginning of America's epidemic, AIDS primarily affected men who have sex with men (MSM). Today, MSM still account for around three-quarters of HIV diagnoses among male adults and adolescents and the rate of HIV diagnoses among MSM is more than 44 times that of other men. According to one study published by the CDC in 2010, one in five MSM in the 21 cities surveyed has HIV and almost half are unaware of their status. Gay and bisexual men of all races are the only group where new infections are rising every year and it is thought this rising number of new infections is due to an increasing number of MSM having unprotected sex.
Males who do anal with males: At the beginning of America's epidemic, AIDS primarily affected males who do anal with males (MAM). Today, MAM still account for around three-quarters of HIV diagnoses among male adults and adolescents and the rate of HIV diagnoses among MAM is more than 44 times that of other men. According to one study published by the CDC in 2010, one in five MAM in the 21 cities surveyed has HIV and almost half are unaware of their status. Gay- and bi- identified males of all races are the only group where new infections are rising every year and it is thought this rising number of new infections is due to an increasing number of MAM engaging in unprotected anal penetration -- although many studies question the "safety" of anal even when a condom is used.
Because of my size and butch looks, gay guys come on to me. Believe me, I
don't send out ANY SIGNALS.
Good for you!!!
So, I'm sensitive to gay guys and their anal shit. I really don't want any
part of it. When they come on to me, all I want to do is beat the shit out
of them. I HATE IT.
Believe me, I would not beat gays up for no reason. I'm not like that.
I understand.
I just hate it when they are so damn persistent. They just don't stop trying.
Abstract
Also, the video is awesome.
I can't tell you how your posts (including the images) have had such a
strong and lasting impact on me.
Great!
What's really cool about the Warrior site is that I can go back and read and
read, over and over, what you have posted, alot going back to almost 10
years ago.
I must have read NW's posts at least 10 times. I know that sounds excessive
but he has had SUCH a profound impact on me that it has really changed my outlook on my life and who I am as a Man.
I want to thank you again for all the work done on this site.
It must be frustrating at times, especially with many of the guys who come to the site but don't move forward.
Having been in therapy and with a support group for 5 years, I understand how denial works.
With much of my "work " done, I'm now in a place
to be a Kickass Warrior.
Good!
I could NEVER have done this 4 years ago. I just
wasn't ready. Now I am.
On the left, wrestlers and their trainer; to the right, a boxer wraps his hand in soft leather thongs,
while another athlete softens the sand of the fight pit -- the skamma -- with a pickaxe.
athenian ephebes train at the palaistra
the view is from the apodyterion or undressing room
cut-away of the apodyterion at Nemea
From the same root [ARES] comes areté [excellence] ...the first notion of goodness being that of manhood, bravery in war; cf. Lat. virtus.
The Fight Pits are in the large courtyard at the center of the palaistra;
there are classrooms on either side of the courtyard;
the ephebeion (XII) is on the north side and the apodyterion (V) on the south.
[The Palaistra] is a place where the mind as well as the body is exercised and trained.
adopt the idea of the homosexual as a physical "species" different
from the heterosexual. But there are no convincing historical grounds
for this view.
Neither "homosexual" nor "heterosexual":
Zeus, King of the Gods,
with his wife Hera -- and
his male lover Ganymedes
Contrary to today's bio-belief, the heterosexual/homosexual binary is not in nature, but is socially constructed, therefore deconstructable.
We should be calling humans bisexual because this idea of exclusive homosexuality is not accurate of people. Homosexuality is mixed in with heterosexuality across cultures and history.
Animals don't do sexual identity. They just do sex.
Achilles bandages his Lover Patroklos' wound
The Fight Pits are in the large courtyard at the center of the palaistra;
there are classrooms on either side of the courtyard;
the ephebeion (XII) is on the north side and the apodyterion (V) on the south.
Zeus, King of the Gods,
with his wife Hera -- and
his male lover Ganymedes
Zeus and Ganymedes
. . . he does not accept or admit into the guard-house [of his soul] the words of truth when anyone tells him that some pleasures arise from honorable and good desires, and others from those that are base [1], and that we ought to practise and esteem the one and control and subdue the others; but he shakes his head at all such admonitions and avers that they are all alike and to be equally esteemed.
[1] An obvious reference to the Gorgias. Cf. Gorg. 494 E
And so you, who have been brought up for a long time in contact with philosophy, and have from the beginning been accustomed to philosophic reasoning as an ingredient in every portion of early instruction and information, ought to feel like an old friend and familiar when you come to philosophy, which alone can array young men in the manly and truly perfect adornment that comes from reason.
You, on the other hand, have often been told that following God and listening to reason are identical; so bear in mind that for intelligent people, the passage from childhood to adulthood is not a change of rules, but an abandoment of ruler; instead of someone whose services are hired and bought, they accept in their lives the divine leadership of reason -- and it is only those who follow reason who deserve to be regarded as free.
Virtuous Manhood: Achilles reclines over the corpse of his enemy Hektor.
Hektor killed Achilles' Lover Patroklos; Achilles has now killed Hektor.
Despite knowing that in so doing, he will hasten the end of his own life.
Plato: There is no sort of Areté more respected by the Gods than this which comes of Eros.
There is no sort of Virtue more respected by the Gods than this which comes of Manly Love.
And that's what you see in this painting: A picture of supreme Manly Virtue, motivated by Manly Love.
It takes a lot of guts to admit you're attracted to guys.
What you end up doing is turning off your feelings.
I just read the new copy of this posting and the original was good, but this is great! So "Part 2" should be amazing! There were a couple of things that really stood out. Mike said "I'm now in a place to be a Kickass Warrior" and "I could NEVER have done this 4 years ago. I just wasn't ready. Now I am" and you Bill said "You're now ready to be what God and Nature have always intended you to be: A WARRIOR."
I am taken back to the time I sent you my first E mail "Time to be a Warrior?" after YEARS of fighting with my "Church" self. Like Mike I was liberated and Yes it was Time to be a Warrior, that is a WARRIOR! -- and like Mike it really is the best thing that has happened to me. Yes it takes guts to admit you're attracted to guys, and no I am not "gay" nor do I do anal. It will take a long hard struggle to bring about the social changes that we crave. So we need to (as WARRIOR Mike said) Fight the Fight Now!
Wow, you've given me, again, a lot to think about.
I belong to ACOA, Adult Children of Alcoholics. It's geared to anyone who,
as a child, experienced family dysfunction as a result of drug addiction.
It also serves adult children of dysfunctional families,
of which there are many flavors.
The 12 Step program is designed around issues with dysfunctional families, a
cousin of the AA programs.
I was thinking how this could possibly help the guys coming to the site.
But I think you're right, they need to join fight school.
By going regularly they come in touch with this, over and over.
For me, fight school is AWESOME. Just the thought of it makes me hard. I can
get all my aggression out, let it out, and it feels SO GOOD. It's scary and cool at the same time.
The body contact, with another guy my size and strength, makes me feel like I'm in another world.
I think, because of the tech world that we men live in, that we men have lost contact with our aggressive selves.
If there is no heterosexual society there would be no homosexuals. And no heterosexuals either. Male-male sex is isolated only because in the western society, its spaces and its customs are completely heterosexualized (i.e. made mixed gender with pressures to be heterosexual). But heterosexual spaces are themselves unnatural --- and it was only through financial and technological power brought by industrialisation that the western society could create such an artificial unnatural heterosexual environment.
Fight school puts us back in the same place as the ancient Greeks did, the only difference is that its not nude.
Big difference, but we're getting there. I'd like it to be nude, but we're at least moving in the right direction.
I guess the trick is how to get the guys to commit to fight school. Like I've said earlier Bill, I've been through 5 years of therapy and most of the denial is gone, so for me I just checked them out and joined one.
I think for many of the guys the denial is actually getting in the way of them making the commitment of fight school.
It stops them.
I've seen it over and over again in ACOA. These people are in such denial that
they can't move. Sort of like a deer in headlights. They just stare at you.
Can't move. THAT is what denial can do and boy o boy that was me 5 years ago. Today, with the denial gone, I'm free.
It would have to be modified for the Warriors. At times, it tends to be soft
and flowery, which for fight school guys used to blood, sweat and cum, would be a turnoff.
I'll give the regional chapters some thought too.
Thanks Bill again for all your work with this program. It has done wonders
for me.
For me, fight school is AWESOME. Just the thought of it makes me hard. I can get all my aggression out, let it out, and it feels SO GOOD. It's scary and cool at the same time. The body contact, with another guy my size and strength, makes me feel like I'm in another world.
It really helps to get past the denial and admit feelings that were stuffed for YEARS and then to be free to be a real, authentic man, that is what a Warrior is all about.
who reject anal penetration, promiscuity, and effeminacy
among men who have sex with men
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you're attracted to guys