Robert Loring

Re: Two men can be one

2-1-2006

You're not alone Eric!

Finding a frot partner may be difficult but once you find him and establish loyalty to each other there is nothing that can explain the beauty of the relationship. Two men truly CAN be ONE in body, mind, and in spirit.

Sir Robert

Tommy

Re: Two men can be one

2-1-2006

Eric--Your words are my words too! I have often felt like an outsider in the "gay world". Like you, most guys won't talk to me when I tell them I am not into anal sex. I am hoping to find a nice guy to experience the wonderful feelings of frot with. Someone I can be one with for a very long time!

If ya ever wanna chat or something e-mail me and let's get to know each other!

Tommy

Eric

Re: Two men can be one

2-2-2006

First, thanks to Bill for posting my email here. And as well, thanks for both of your responses. It IS difficult to find that young FROT buddy in a world of ass-sex. Being young, my nightlife is active - primarily with my non-hitched straight dudes and their scene. Not much for me there (I don't try to convert my buds). But all I see when I go to the local young homo establishment - i'm thinking y'all have had similar experiences - is such filth and debauchery that I am scarcely capable of remaining there for more than a matter of minutes. What I fail to understand here is how people feel the way they behave is normal/morally justified. Per readings in other posts, perhaps it is mass-media generalization that turns people to believe that whoring about is acceptable. I feel like using my warrior instinct by picking a normal looking one out of the crowd, cavemanishly batting him on the head, and dragging him out by his feet to bring home to thoroughly reprogram (kidding totally). Is that what it takes? I sure hope not. I go to Kent State (no, I dont dodge bullets on the way to class) but the gay union indeed is populated by lesbians and fem guys, not cool. I'm 23 and have plenty of time to wait, but where DO the frot boys hide? Any suggestions of where I might find one?

Eric

Bill Weintraub

Re: Two men can be one

2-2-2006

Hey Eric

Here are some suggestions:

1. Post in Frot Club.

   Unfortunately, although I do my best to screen, there are guys in there who are into anal; there are guys in there who are promiscuous.

   When guys respond to your post, one thing to do is ask: "Do you support the Alliance? Do you donate?"

   That should be your litmus test.

   The sincere guys donate.

   The rest don't.

2. Don't assume your straight friends are straight.

   Most men are bisexual.

   Which means that many of your buds share your same-sex feelings.

   They just hide them.

   "I don't try to convert my buds."

   Right -- you don't want to be obnoxious.

   But you don't want to be so closed off to the possibility that you miss signals that guys may put out.

   Take a look at my post titled About Promiscuity, Str8 guys, Boytoys, and Men Who Love Men; and at Eric Lupin's Labels Are Meaningless.

   And then just let yourself be open to the possibility that one or more of your budz doesn't just like girls.

   He may like you too.

3. Network with other guys your age who are posted on this board:

   For example:

   Greg Milliken.

   Boomer.

   Dave.

   Gus Purcell.

   Again, these are the guys who are sincere.

   And they're all donors by the way.

   They go to school, they work, they have very little money, but they donate.

   That says a LOT about them.

4. Think about training in a martial art or combat sport.

   Many guys who are in combat sports are there in part because they like the body contact with other guys.

   Brazilian jiu jitsu, Gracie jiu jitsu, capoiera, karate, TKD -- they're all good.

   And training will give you skills and self-confidence which will stay with you all your life.

   Again, talk to some of the other guys your age about that.

   Or Ask Sensei Patrick.

   Or Naked Wrestler.

5. Think about starting a Regional Chapter.

   I can't imagine a college student would have time to do that, but -- you will meet other guys that way.

So those are some practical suggestions.

Eric, you wrote:

What I fail to understand here is how people feel the way they behave is normal/morally justified. Per readings in other posts, perhaps it is mass-media generalization that turns people to believe that whoring about is acceptable.

Those men are part of a culture.

We call it analism or the BFD, and you need to understand that the men you're encountering have been acculturated into that culture, and changing their minds about anal, promiscuity, and effeminacy is going to take a long time.

I know you're in school and you have lots of reading, but please try to read some of the articles on the site in the section called Frot: The Next Sexual Revolution; those articles will help you understand how that culture functions, and what needs to be done to change it.

I feel like using my warrior instinct by picking a normal looking one out of the crowd, cavemanishly batting him on the head, and dragging him out by his feet to bring home to thoroughly reprogram (kidding totally). Is that what it takes?

I think it's important for you to talk to other guys your age, like Greg and boomer and Dave, about that.

And read as deeply on this board and in Warriors Speak as you can.

Finally, Eric, the most important thing you can do is stay true to yourself and your warrior ideals.

If you do that, the rest will fall into place.

May not seem like that now, but it will.

So remember Warrior bro,

Tommy

Re: Two men can be one

2-2-2006

Hey Eric--it's me again! Even though I am older than you your story reminds me of my own at your age. I am hoping some hindsight from an older dude may bring you comfort.

Most of my buds in college were straight and like, you, I usually hung with them at their scene. Some of these guys were what I would consider very close friends. So close in fact that we were a couple minus the sex--always together or knowing of where the other was! Now I am not one to parade my sexual orientation and I never told any of these guys I was gay. However, they had to know because I was never on a "pussy prawl". And again, like you, I have never been into the "gay" bar thing. Sound a bit familiar?

On several occasions, usally late at night, I would be talking alone with my friend and I would feel an intense sexual urge toward him. Looking back on each enounter I have begun to think that they were experiencing the same feelings and that we were both unprepared to deal with them. Our eyes would meet, conversation would stop, and an uncomfortable hush would fill the room. Usually at this point they would say it was time they got home or let's watch a movie--something like that. Hindsight being 20/20, I wish I would have siezed on at least one of these occasions to explore the possibility of taking our friendship to a whole new level! There are ways you can test the situation with out making a full fledged sexual pass at a dude. I would urge you to find what works for you so when one of those moments happens you are prepared to explore the possibility that this guy too may want to be more than friends!

Best of luck to all of us. It is a long road to find the right guy but if we watch for the signs we will all get there eventually!

Tommy

Greg Milliken

Re: Two men can be one

2-2-2006

Hey Eric,

No, I don't think it's possible to "reprogram" someone overnight. I've tried having reasonable discussions with gay men on the topic of frot, and it always turns into personal attacks against me. It's not enough that I like frot and they (for whatever reason) want anal, it always seems that they aren't satisfied unless I agree with them. Of course, I never do, so usually those arguments end rather abruptly.

I do think that, over time, you may convince people who already enjoy frot to drop the anal act. I think this is more likely to happen with "bottoms," since they have the most to gain from avoiding anal. Unfortunately, my experience has lead me to believe that even if someone accepts your ideals, they may not hold them as their own. You can lead a man's cock to yours, but you can't make him a frot man. That's something he must decide on his own.

And there ARE people out there who feel the same as you do within gay culture. Certainly, the odds of finding them, especially at gay bars, is slim, but they do exist.

I keep hearing about how you're more likely to find a frot bud among the "straight world" than the gay one, and the more I think about it the more it makes sense. These are men who, to a large degree, were never conditioned into practicing anal penetration (except for a few fringe members). Plus, like Bill says, men are largely bisexual. I can remember several times in my life situations where I felt a certain sexual tension, like the previous poster, but never acted on it. I'm almost certain that the other guy was feeling it too.

Whichever course you decide, or perhaps even both, it's always good to stay true to yourself. If you won't, then who will?

Best to you.

Greg Milliken

Bill G

Re: Two men can be one

2-2-2006

Hey Eric,

I just wanted to reiterate what Tommy said. Looking back with hindsight, I see a lot of missed opportunities I had with my friends. Don't do the same as I did and ignore them. Let your heart be your guide. I wish you the best in looking for a buddy.

Be safe

Bill G

Bill Weintraub

Re: Two men can be one

2-5-2006

Thanks all of you

Greg said

I've tried having reasonable discussions with gay men on the topic of frot, and it always turns into personal attacks against me. It's not enough that I like frot and they (for whatever reason) want anal, it always seems that they aren't satisfied unless I agree with them. Of course, I never do, so usually those arguments end rather abruptly.

Right.

If you read my first three pieces, published in 99 and 2000, you'll see that in each one I said something conciliatory about anal.

Hyacinthine Love

Frot: The Next Sexual Revolution

Interview: Cockrub Warrior Bill Weintraub

Didn't make a shred of difference.

It doesn't matter to "men into anal."

At the first hint of dissent from the dictatorship, they go ballistic.

It's unreal.

I thought this would be an honor-diversity slam dunk.

Frot is a hot, masculine, and uniquely gay way to have low-risk sex.

And my pitch was that pressure to do anal was what led to the epidemic, and if we dropped the pressure, the health problems would dissipate.

They don't want to hear it.

Okay.

Maybe the problem isn't the message, maybe it's the messenger.

Nope.

Chuck Tarver and I are tempermentally very different.

Chuck hasn't gotten any farther than I have.

Nor has Mart Finn, who's the third major player in this.

Not only that, we work different sides of the street.

Chuck concentrates on the African-American community.

Mart is based in the UK / EU.

Again, doesn't matter.

Chuck is a communications expert, HIV prevalence among African-American gay men is 46%, and gay Black men are far more likely to die of AIDS than are white guys.

The Black leadership will not discuss it.

So: analism trumps race, it trumps nationality, and it trumps self-interest.

It also trumps politics.

Clinton Democrat, Bush Repub, Green, Libertarian, Tory, Labor -- makes no difference.

Greg:

I keep hearing about how you're more likely to find a frot bud among the "straight world" than the gay one, and the more I think about it the more it makes sense. These are men who, to a large degree, were never conditioned into practicing anal penetration (except for a few fringe members). Plus, like Bill says, men are largely bisexual. I can remember several times in my life situations where I felt a certain sexual tension, like the previous poster, but never acted on it. I'm almost certain that the other guy was feeling it too.

Right.

The tension and attraction that you guys have felt and are feeling is most probably real.

And that's why I and Bill G said it's reasonable to be open to the possibility that a straight-identified guy is also interested in other guys.

The problem is that society rewards men for being heterosexual and punishes them for being homosexual.

And of course most straight-identified men want to marry and have children.

That's independent of their bisexuality.

I'm married to a bi-guy, but his life-path has been unusual, and he's also unusually honest for a man who's been straight-identified most of his life.

And we met relatively late in life.

I'm 57.

If I had met Patrick when we were in our twenties, would he have married me?

I don't know.

I don't want to be overly discouraging with you guys, and Bill G is certainly right that you should let your heart be your guide; but realistically, though there are free spirits out there -- they're few and far between.

Most people are conventional.

They do what their culture tells them to do.

The only true solution is to change the cultures.

Plural.

Both cultures, just like we say in An Introduction to Frot and The Man2Man Alliance.

And that cannot be done as we are now, limping along from month to month on the web, and with NONE of you, other than Beagle and Joel, willing to make even the first step towards a Regional Chapter.

Cannot be done.

Will not happen.

Sure, if a new anally-vectored pathogen appeared tomorrow, we'd look good to a lot of guys -- maybe.

Of course, most of your potential partners would probably die before anyone had a chance to take advantage of the change.

That's a real fun experience, let me tell you.

And no one can say when the next anally-vectored pathogen will appear.

Could be tomorrow.

Could be twenty years from now.

And like I say -- maybe.

The truth is if HIV and HPV didn't move them away from anal -- why would H"X"V?

The only solution is for you guys to do more.

As Den called upon you to do in his post ARE THERE REALLY WARRIORS?

And to which there's been NO RESPONSE.

And by "you guys" I don't mean Greg and boomer and Bill G.

I mean everybody else.

"Many hands make light the work."

If each of you did a little bit -- like sent $5 a month -- you'd begin to see change.

Do nothing and nothing will change.

I've been saying that for five years, and you've done nothing.

And now I'm tired and ready to quit.

You'd better pay attention to that.

Because there's no one else who will do what I do.

No one.

Truth is, it's thankless work.

I do it for Brett.

I do it because of what I've seen and know to be true.

But I will not do it forever.

Not without support.

No one would.

Bill Weintraub

Pete

Re: Two men can be one

3-12-2006

Hello Eric,

I agree with you - I find that many blokes don't wanna talk once I say that I'm not into anal - but keep looking because I have met a man who if he wants to root - he will root a pussy - not an arse. Man to man frot sex - chest to chest is liberating and makes me proud to be a man,

Peter