What I found really interesting in this post was his phrase "connect us again with the inner warrior who represents our true identity."

When I was a kid growing up gay, I had a very hard time formulating my identity because I wasn't a queen, and the only role models for gay kids were queens -- men like Liberace and Paul Lynde.

I couldn't relate to either of them. Liberace was a eunuch -- it was impossible to imagine him having sex -- and Paul Lynde lived in the shadows -- not a place I wanted to be.

Gay Lib helped me see that I could come out and be myself, not a stereotype. But at the same time, when I did come out, it was still into a mass culture in which gay men were encouraged to look not for their inner warrior, but for their inner queen.

There were several reasons for that.

One was simply the traditional identification of gay with effeminate.

Another was the extreme hostility of ordinary str8 people to homosexuality, and the relative acceptance of gay men by (some -- not all) feminists, who viewed our problems as similar to those of women, that is, brought about by patriarchy, and who accepted us to the degree that our behavior and our thought accorded with their theories.

And a third was that traditional male culture, and in particular the warrior aspect of that culture, had been discredited by the war in Vietnam, in which it appeared that our soldiers were at best dupes of a heartless and cynical male establishment and at worst cold-blooded killers of patriotic Vietnamese men, women, and children.

To come out as a masculinist would have been very difficult under those circumstances and in that atmosphere, and I don't know anyone who did.

Instead, when I came out, I found an outlet for my warrior nature by becoming an activist and dedicating myself to the fight against homophobia.

Which entailed accepting and affecting a certain amount of queenliness -- because it was politically correct to do so.

But doing that always chafed -- I didn't like it, I didn't feel it had anything to do with who I was, and I was certain, despite the feminist theory, that effeminacy wasn't good for gay men -- that it played into internalized homophobia.

And I knew that there were other activists who felt the same -- my lover among them -- and at least one who's still alive and in this club, a man who put together one of the country's biggest anti-violence projects -- which included a self-defense course which in turn was my introduction to karate.

Nevertheless, our voices were submerged by the rising tide of mass gay anal culture, which supported effeminacy and was suspicious of masculinity except in dom/sub role-play such as B&D.

So writing Hyacinthine Love and then establishing this club and interacting with all of you guys has been for me a process of doing what Greg said: connecting with my inner warrior and my true identity.

And that's why I called this site Heroic Homosex -- because that's how I see my life and that of my fellows:

Phallic, Masculine, Heroic

Martial, Masculine, Monogamous

Those qualities are all interconnected.

And I know now that many other men feel as we do.

In addition to his post titled "Rebirth," Greg posted these two replies to message threads started by David McQuarrie:

re: Frotonian Brotherhood -- It's Our Identity

wow is this a dream coming true?

FINALLY A PODIUM FOR US TO SPEAK OUT AGAINST THAT ANAL SHIT, WHICH IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE DEATH OF REAL LOVE BETWEEN MAN AND MAN?

WHICH TURNED THE GAY WORLD INTO A BUNCH OF PROSTITUTES AND IDIOTS?

WE ARE THE REAL MEN NOT THEM.

LONG LIVE THE BROTHERHOOD.

SALUTE TO ALL OF YOU, AND THANKS FOR COMING INTO EXISTENCE.

re: Thoughts from a HOMOSEX Warrior

STRONG TRUSTING HONEST LOYAL FEARSOME WISE....ETC

WHEN I READ THESE WORDS MY SOUL OPENS UP.

AND WITH IT MY ....REAL.....SEXUALITY

I HATE HATE HATE BUTTFUCKERS THEY SUBDUED US FOR TOO LONG.

THESE SISSYS, LYERS, CHEATERS, BITCHES HAVE TO GO UNDERGROUND WHERE THEY BELONG.

SALUTE TO ALL THE WARRIORS

I salute Greg, who reminds us that

Bill Weintraub

Greg

Re: Rebirth

3-31-2002

Hi there

Thanks Bill for paying so much attention to my posts and i'm happy to talk to people who seem to understand what i'm talking about.

Yes the situation is quite depressing. On the one hand you have the so called straight world which still gives you a hard time in everyday situations, on the other hand there is the oppressing "anal" gay culture that rules and keeps on destroying your inner emotional harmony.

You can't identify with one or with the other so maybe it's really time to establish something which could serve one's own soul.

I'm quite convinced that there are two main types of gay males: the so called "warriors" and the "boys".

So what's the difference?

Well it's quite clear that a real warrior will never give in to anal submission because virginity is a sacred aspect of a warrior.

Every kind of anal submission is an act of weakening his fighting power, his aggressiveness and his will to survive.

And that's what it makes a shameful act.

On this point i dont want to be understood wrong, i do not say that somebody who likes or needs to submit to another guy is doing a wrong thing, certainly not, but if that is the case he for sure does not belong to the category of the warrior type of gay male.

On the other hand i understand the explosiveness of my point that says anal sex is shameful because that's exactly what homophobic heterosexuals used over centuries to demonize gay people, but in the end, the world is not just black and white, social structures are much more complex than that.

Well in contrast to a warrior type a so called "boy" type is someone thats wants, needs, clearness in social questions -- who dominates and who has to submit, who controls and who has to be controlled.

This question is solved through anal penetration.

This kind of emotional interaction between men reminds me as well of a master/slave relationship and the feelings which arise out of such a kind of relationship will probably be more of sadomasochistic nature.

The emotional nature of warriors in contrast to that is quite different. It has nothing to do with questions like who dominates and who has to submit.

It is based on equality and sharing, and the basic emotional procedure is *identification and not structuring*.

Identification in the sense of, i like you, i open up for you, i love you, we two melt into one.

Structuring in the sense of i sacrifice myself for you, although i do not love you, it's just for my sexual satisfaction. (from the view of the bottom)

And

I take you, i use you, because im the stronger one, all for my sexual satisfaction (from the view of the top)

There is no sharing, no melting together so consequently there can be no LOVE.

And that's exactly what anal gay culture today mirrors, relationships are mainly of sexual nature, monogamous (i mean real monogamy) is out, having a lot of partners is supposed to be cool, feelings are not desired, the whole spiritual dimension of a man to man relationship is simply non existent anymore.

Honestly that's a fucking world.

Athenian warrior-lovers who died in battle and were buried together

So what is the spiritual dimension of a warrior to warrior relationship?

Well let me express it in a extreme way just to make clearer what is it about.

First the sexual act will never involve any penetration because penetrating the one you love and identify with is a crime.

It's an act of hate and not of love.

The relationship is monogamous.

But what's more important than that, it's the unification of both's strength into one, and as a result of that the fighting power doubles.

A warrior will always be prepared to give his life for the loved one and if necessary avenge his death.

The warrior on itself can be tough and cruel on itself with an enemy, but he can be as well astonishingly sensual and soft while mating with his loved one.

Sure sometimes it can be rough as well for example after a dispute and the following release of tension in a sexual act for example.

Like i said this is an extreme description of the soul of a warrior and understandably in today's world of hightech civilization some things modify but in the basic these are values on which a warrior soul is based.

I hope i was able in this text to point out some differences between a so-called gay warrior type culture and a gay boy type culture.

One thing they (the anal culture) will never have is a real man to man relationship, because penetration transforms a man to man relationship into a man to boy relationship.

So we are, we have always been and we will always be the real men. ;)

Salute to all you warriors and stay clean.

Re: Rebirth

Let me just add, that when im talking about we two melt into one, it means melting into one in EQUALITY and thats what i consider as real love and respect ! ;)

Bill Weintraub

Re: Rebirth

3-31-2002

this is a terrific post from our Croatian Warrior Greg, and in it he brings up a lot of difficult issues

as he points out, us guys into frot are caught between straight homophobia and an oppressive, dictatorial, and soul-destroying gay male anal establishment

so, he says, we need to create our own institutions which speak to our spiritual needs

that's what i've tried to do with Heroic Homosex -- present a very clear alternative

and some very stark choices:

Compare: Freedom Equality Masculinity Full body Fidelity Health Warrior	FROT Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes	Anal No No No No No No No

FROT Freedom Equality Masculinity Full body Fidelity Health

anal Subjugation Tops and Bottoms Effeminacy Anus Promiscuity Disease

to those categories Greg has now brilliantly added Warriors vs. Boys

and has pointed out that there's a real difference in the mind-set between the two

that for the boys, sex is defined by a shameful act -- being penetrated

while for the warriors, sex is defined by equality and a refusal to penetrate the man one loves

so just as the Cockster in CocktoCock talked about the difference between interactional (phallus2phallus) and transactional (anal) sex, so Greg has talked about the difference between identifying with one's lover and structuring sex just to obtain anal satisfaction

Greg also describes the warrior-to-warrior ethos:

that in their monogamous relationship, the partners' strengths are joined and their fighting power therefore doubled

that's what Gilgamesh and Enkidu triumphantly proclaim while battling their monstrous foes: two people, companions, they can prevail!

Greg also points out that warrior-lovers will die for each other and if necessary avenge a death

and he says that warriors may be tough and even cruel to their enemies, while gentle and loving with each other

Greg also brings up the very important question of whether it's homophobic to criticize anal

That's the attitude of the gay establishment -- that we can't criticize anal because homophobes have done so in the past

But as Greg points out, societies and cultures are complex

In my experience, homophobes reject any form of sex between men -- it's convenient for them that anal penetration is such a disaster, and that gay men are so self-loathing that they've bought into anal, but homophobes don't like frot either

I know because I've been writing to various people on the religious right and in the abstinence crowd, challenging them by saying "You don't like anal -- neither do we; you don't like promiscuity -- neither do we. But the public perceives you as anti-gay. Are you? We're putting forth a vision of love between men that's martial, masculine, and monogamous. If you're not anti-gay, but just don't like anal promiscuity, you should embrace what we're saying. But if you are anti-gay, you should be honest about it, and say -- 'we're bigots, and we won't like you no matter what you do.' "

And I'll continue to do that. I have no problem attacking two establishments: the gay anal establishment, and the anti-gay abstinence establishment. I can wage a war on two fronts, or more if I have to, and I will because doing so enables me to point out the hypocrisy in both camps: the analists claim to be tolerant, and are not, while the puritans claim to be concerned about public health and morality -- and are not.

So we're offering men who love men a third way -- our warrior way. A way that's masculine, phallic, heroic.

And that's defined by phallic mating.

An act that's uniquely male, and uniquely ours.

Greg

Re: Rebirth

4-5-2002

Wow ;)

I like expressions like "third way" and "building our own institutions".

Maybe, just maybe, this is a beginning of a new groundbreaking sexual revolution.

One thing is clear,the way of a "gay warrior" is not just a special form of male samesex expression, neither it is simply foreplay, it's a full mature homosexual act that unites BODY SOUL and SPIRIT.

I have to admit that expressing myself like that i feel a bit uncomfortable, but not for the reason that i maybe think that im giving wrong statements here,

no for sure not, deep in my soul i feel the truth and validity of what im saying here.

It's because of the ruling "anal culture" that seems to forbid real man to man love.

The message they give us day by day is, it's ok to have sex with men but it's wrong to love a man.

And because there is no purer expression of man to man love than frott, they simply present it negative and immature and say if you don't do anal you're not real gay.

No wonder we feel like that "uncomfortable" with our real sexuality.

It's nothing else than the homophobic straight world did telling us our sexual orientation is wrong, so they do telling us when we are gay or not.

Further i have to repeat i dont say anal "sex" is wrong for the "boys" but absolutely useless and unsatisfying for "warriors".

If they want to continue to praise their anal practice, they as well should face reality and admit openly:

1. it's in essence a man to boy relationship
   (never a man to man)

2. it has nothing to do with love of equals or LOVE itself, it's a sadomasochistic practice
   (reminds me of social structures in military)

3. it's denial of natural soul and manhood (for the bottom)
   it's denial of natural love and rape of manhood (for the top)

But in the end a real warrior never gives up and knows deeply the truth because we are the ones that have a deep bond with mother nature.

So they can't and will never be able to fool us.

If the "boys" say they have firm relationships that last for years (for example 16 years, statement of teddy snyder) i dont want to know how many other guys hit his hole during that time.

In general i have to say that im really surprised when i hear about so called "open relationships", which is a product of "anal culture".

So can somebody tell me what's the basis of such a relationship?

Yes i know, i'm selfish, possesive, immature just because i keep love sacred in my heart and because i do not let other guys use my ass for their satisfaction.

And in the end it's not just about love it's about pride

self respect

celebrating the inner warrior

keeping in touch with nature

etc

Let me add to the end of this post one more thing.

After my entrance into the gay world i was confronted with several statements of required correct gay behaviour.

One of these statements that really bothered me was "straight acting".

Well there we are, after a vicious struggle with the homophobic straight world, i know was expected to present myself "straight acting"

What the hell is this???? "straight acting"

Me personally i never felt really extremely masculine on the one hand or feminine on the other.

It was and it is both part of me.

For me it was clear i'm a male so i'm going to present me as a guy, dude, man whatever.

I'm emotionally highly sensitive, well great, i love that and i take that.

After all this wasnt really THAT what was important.

Important were my inner personal expectations of being strong, taking on every challenge, fighting back, never giving up, being tough and hard if required, in short, the inner warrior was what was important.

And such an attitude is not genderspecific.

You can be a warrior in a male body but you can be as well a warrior in a female body.

The values we follow are the same.

What i want to say with this i never felt uncomfortable about my emotional so-called female side; neither did this mean, that because of this, i felt my masculine side endangered.

It was and it is like an inner kind of bisexuality but just on the Spirit/Soul level, because my sexual orientation is clearly gay.

Ok thats for now ;)

Salute to all you warriors and stay clean.

Bill Weintraub

Re: Rebirth

4-01-2002

wow

i love greg's posts

and yes, we are at the beginning of a new groundbreaking sexual revolution, and that's why i called my first article for GayToday Frot: The Next Sexual Revolution

anal is tired and played out, and the attributes that go with anal -- the promiscuity and the effeminacy -- are out-of-date too.

as is hyper-masculinity, or macho --

both the effeminacy and the hyper-masculinity that one sees in gay male culture are expressions of insecurity and self-hate

and effeminate behavior should never be confused with being in touch with the feminine side of one's nature

like anal, effeminacy is a learned behavior and cultural overlay, a response to straight expectations of how men who have sex with men should behave, rather than who we really are

so the frottage movement and Heroic Homosex is a third force, offering men very clear alternatives:

Equality, not top or bottom

Fidelity, not promiscuity

Phallus, not anus

Warriors, not boys

and as Greg says, our Warrior Way unites BODY SOUL and SPIRIT.

that's why i called this site Heroic Homosex

because it's not enough to substitute one form of sex -- frot -- for another -- anal -- while leaving the rest of the oppressive structure intact

i won't be any part of that -- nor do i think it would work -- the values of men into frot are too different from those of men into anal

and if we don't challenge those anal values, what will happen is what we've been seeing in some of the other cock2cock clubs -- those clubs have, to a degree, popularized frot, making it more accepted, but often as a form of foreplay, and that's why you'll find many of the guys who post in those clubs saying, after we frot, I want to fuck butt

so we need to be very clear -- we don't do anal, and we don't want any part of the values of anal culture -- the promiscuity, the effeminacy, the drug use, the devaluation of human life

and that's why i love warriors like Greg and David McQuarrie and Don F and Andrew64 and Bradwrestle and JoePC and Springer and Gary and the Cockster and so many many others

because their voices are strong and uncompromising

some people think that they -- and I -- are too strident

but that's wrong

we cannot win this battle by making meek pleas for tolerance to people who are as oppressive and life-hating as the analists

can't be done

rather, we have to fight, and in that fight we have to articulate a clear vision of an alternative, attractive, and viable future for men who have sex with men

not just a pale copy of the miserable and depressing present

that's what Heroic Homosex is about

a future -- based upon the inner warrior ethos that Greg has so beautifully described --

of men who love themselves

loving other men

who love themselves

men -- warriors -- lovers

phallic -- masculine -- heroic

Greg

Re: Rebirth

4-3-2002

Hi there

Bill i must say that's a wonderful ending in your last post in rebirth.

"Of men who love themselves and love other men who love themselves"

This simply says it all.

It describes a peak of so strong and powerful masculine love, just reading it, wants to let me explode in eternal happiness and joy.

And it's not just love that i feel by reading this it's as well an enormous feeling of power and integrity that awakes.

It's wonderful to be a gay man but being a gay warrior tops it all.

So i say to all you gay warriors dont be ashamed of your "inner warrior" because only through him and through his way freedom comes.

Furthermore Bill, no, we are not strident at all.

I totally agree we have to say definitely "NO TO ANAL SEX PRACTICE"

IT'S SELFHATE, IT'S HATE ON MEN.

To repeat myself virginity is the basic sacred value of a gay warrior. If you keep this in your heart and mind you never do wrong.

It's the value of values of a warrior.

We have the values, they the drugs -- it's logic what will prevail.

Salute to all warriors and stay clean.

The Avenger

Greg

Hi Bill

I just read your story The Avenger.

It's simply excellent.

Guess my date with Mars is already for a long time overdue.

You really succeed to point out the right things in that story.

Even the eye colour of mars (GREEN) is the right one.

I love green eyes, they have something special, warriorlike. :)

You mention totally right the "filling up" with male/warrior/masculine energy.

And mentioning the eyecolor shift from green to a red glow and back, that's superb.

I experienced that two or three times when i found myself in critical moments of a real "near fight".

Well, not the change of the colour but the feelings that come with this.

First there was the feeling of being afraid, then suddenly you're getting in contact with the inner warrior and in a moment the fear changes into, let's say, "dare to touch me and i crush you instantly".

It's crazy but in this moment you really could take on everybody.

And although the guys were bigger......at that moment, when i experienced this, they stepped back.

I dont want to show me as a superhero here, because currently im far away from that, nor do i have good fighting skills, i'm a mess in that.

(and i hate that fact on me)

I'm talking about what we as warriors could be or what we are supposed to be and "the red glow" plays an important part in it.

By the way i loved the past TV series like "Xena" or "Hercules". I dont know if it was intended or not, but for anybody with open eyes, the high degree of samesex love, was obvious.

Fight and samesex love, it simply belongs together.

So no wonder that in ancient, war cultures, like the romans and greeks, homosexuality was ok (as long as there was no anal), maybe it was even more than just ok, who knows, the historical libraries of that time burned when the christians took over.

That could maybe be a reason for the homophobic standpoint of the christian church and priesthood.

By changing the warrior mentality they had to scrap the old gods and impose a "one god" dictatorship.

The so called god of "love".

Well what kind of love this is, we know it too well.

And guess what kind of sexuality they do favourize????

Yes "penetration".

Don't understand me wrong, i know that this is the natural way between a man and a woman to reproduce, but this fact doesn't mean, that it has to become a strict cultural overlay.

They scrapped all the values, that comes natural for a warrior, and imposed instead, values of (let's say kind of) kneeling in front of the master.

I have always seen and see the christian church as a dark religion that threw mankind into cultural slavery.

Other monotheistic religons like islam or judaism are not better in this, the monotheistic structure is the same.

Yes i know there are other non-monotheistic religions still today, and that some are homophobic, but don't forget the importance of leadership and influence by current monotheistic religions on them throughout the centuries.

So is there a point in all that????

We will see

Salute to you, Warrior Bill.

Bill Weintraub

Re: The Avenger

4-4-2004

hey greg warrior dude

it's always wonderful to hear from you

i'm glad you liked The Avenger

you're right about the red glow

in the story, Mars is, in a sense, Jake's inner warrior -- the war god is an archetype, an unconscious biologically-rooted trans-racial image that moves into our consciousness in moments of danger and true peril, showing us how to fight and giving us the courage to do so

if your opponents can see that you'll fight, they'll usually back off

and if you get some training in karate or self-defense, they'll be unlikely to even challenge you in the first place

that training changes you and changes your body language, and potential aggressors can see that you're dangerous and that they'd be better off picking on someone else

so i wrote about that a little bit in Heroic Homosex: Towards a New Concept of M2M

regarding the greeks and the christians, you're completely right

i have a long series on the Greeks, starting with an An Introduction.

and continuing with Hoplites

with the hoplite, the Greeks invented the Western way of war -- which is basically heavily-armed infantrymen fighting in dense formations or serried ranks

in hoplite battle, standing shoulder to shoulder with your fellow soldier was the most important thing you could do -- far more important than individual acts of bravery

so though the Greeks invented Western individualism, and in most areas of life viewed the individual's struggle to overcome his opponent as core -- that was especially true in athletics, and was the reason there were no team sports in the Olympics -- in warfare, group cohesion was more important than individual warrior acts of bravery

as you'll see when you read Hoplites, the Greeks very consciously used erotic bonds between men to strengthen the hoplite formation

that was the purpose of the Spartan agoge (communal, homo-erotically charged warrior training), but every city had some form of hoplite training that used homosex

and, the sexual expression of that homosex was supposed to be FROT - never anal, since anal weakens

that's part of the reason, as you'll see, that Harmodius and Aristogeiton killed Hipparchus -- he was threatening to rape Harmodius -- a typical buttfucker

now while we must never forget that there's a vast difference between Christianity the Faith, and Christianity the organized religion, you're also right about Christianity as a religion and agent of social control -- Christianity tried, unsucessfully, to inculcate a philosophy of obedience to a priestly caste and its pope and also turning the other cheek -- that is, away from traditionally warlike Western values

both were a failure -- Western traditions of individualism and warfare defeated the Judeo-Christian-Islamic attempt to orientalize the West

so Christianity as a religion is an Eastern overlay on Western culture, and is the source of a very conflicted dynamic within the West, between rational, individualist, and tolerant values, and irrational, group-oriented, intolerance

i wrote about that a bit in the Cockrub Warrior Interview

Christianity as a religion is a dark force, absolutely -- the thing is, though, that the West has, for more than a thousand years, rejected that churchly Christian ethos -- including turning the other cheek

that's the difference between us and Islam or the Aztecs or the Zulus - we see war differently --

not for racial reasons, but for cultural reasons

in Islam, for example, war is always holy -- jihad

in the West, it's practical -- you meet your opponent on the battlefield, not through terror, and defeat him by an overwhelming and crushing use of force

same for the Aztecs -- they kept trying to capture Cortez alive so that they could sacrifice his still-beating heart to their gods -- if they had simply killed him -- which is what he did to them -- they'd been far better off

that said, we need to remember that early hoplite warfare was ritualized -- and that's the reason they so often fought nude

naturally, military historians aren't comfortable with that idea, and tend to say that the nudity on vase paintings and sculpture is just an artistic convention

not so -- the greeks are very clear in their historical accounts of other peoples, like the Celts, that nudity in battle was common -- see The Celts

and it was among them too -- and was required for athletics -- see Xystarchy: Nude Combat Sport

so there's a warrior ethos -- which culminates in nude battle

and every man carries that ethos in his soul

so when you say:

that's right -- many soldiers will tell you that they loved the guys in their units more than their wives and children

for me, personally, the ethos works like this -- i fight my partner once -- and once only -- after that initial collision, we become warrior-lovers -- and so invincible

okay greg warrior dude -- it's great hearing from you

you really understand the warrior ethos and the source of the problem

you're a great guy and a warrior and

AND