Bill Weintraub

12-17-2005

We have two new and truly dynamite webpages up.

The Age of Warriors is based on posts from Warriors Jedi and Robert Loring in the Rape Culture message thread, and expresses Jedi's powerful vision of our Warrior future.

We ARE Warriors is by Robert Loring, with additional material from Greg Milliken, David McQuarrie, Naked Wrestler, and myself.

Robert's is one of our strongest and most important voices on issues of Warrior identity and Masculinity.

Through these posts from Robert and Jedi and Greg and the naked dude and many others, I feel that our thinking about Masculinity, effeminacy, the BFD, and -- WARRIORS! -- has become much more focused.

All these guys have a vision of a Warrior future;

while they also have a very clear critique of present-day gay male culture -- what passes for "community" among men who have sex with men.

From the beginning, we've been exceptionally fortunate in having guys who combine that understanding of what's wrong with the present with a solid sense of where we need to go in the future.

So ck these pages out.

They're richly illustrated.

And though the two pages share certain visual elements -- that's very much on purpose, because the pages are linked in theme -- there are also subtle variations which are there in part to keep the more graphically-oriented among you reading.

So ck em out:

WARRIORS!

Only here on The Man2Man Alliance.

BillG

Re: WARRIORS!

12-20-2005

GREAT Sites!!!!! Well done guys

Bill G

NakedWrestler

Re: WARRIORS!

12-30-2005

Robert Loring has a lot of good stuff to say. He and I think on the same wavelength but he explains it all more from a society point of view that I've not thought of.

I think I approach things from the physical warrior mentality. My friends think that's all I can seem to talk about. I guess it's my physical nature. If a show has masculine males and it's related to fighting I'll watch it on the spot. Ultimate Fighter is an example. I have been glued to that show. They are on to something, and it's catching on.

And of course going to fight school and sparring and submission grappling for real has given me an insight into real aggression. When you force another male to submit to you in submission grappling or pankration it is VERY significant. It's a feeling of being worthy, and that no male should be ashamed of. It's a power you can draw on in other aspects of life. Another important part of the fight (and warrior mentality that Robert Loring alludes to) is the hand shake/hug after each fight. A good warrior/male role model knows how to make up after battle. THAT is bringing guys together.

And I remember how scared I was just to walk through the door of the school. But once I crossed the line and experienced it, I wondered what the big deal was. And I kicked myself for not going there sooner. It is excruciatingly difficult to tell any guy, even a "straight" guy, how sweet, fun, and intuitive fight sports really are.

It took a lot of courage for me to tell my family and friends that I was boxing even at my age -- 40. Like I had to be ashamed and apologetic about it. That's how society has brainwashed guys -- most guys.

Bill Weintraub

Re: WARRIORS!

12-30-2005

Thanks NakedGuy

NakedWrestler was a college wrestler who later competed in the Gay Games and is now training in pankration / UFC-style mixed martial arts.

NakedWrestler is the author of

Cockfuckin Man to Man;

The Ultimate in Man to Man;

aggression and the beauty of guys;

balls against balls; and,

Fighting is Man.

And his words appear in We ARE Warriors.

Both Robert Loring in We ARE Warriors and Warrior Jedi in The Age of Warriors have a lot of good things to say, and I hope everyone will look at both pages.

They're fun, thought-provoking, and hot.

Now, the Naked guy says that training gives him

a feeling of being worthy, and that no male should be ashamed of. It's a power you can draw on in other aspects of life. Another important part of the fight (and warrior mentality that Robert Loring alludes to) is the hand shake/hug after each fight. A good warrior/male role model knows how to make up after battle. THAT is bringing guys together.

That's right.

And if you haven't experienced that in your life, you're missing something very important.

The Naked guy adds

And I remember how scared I was just to walk through the door of the school. But once I crossed the line and experienced it, I wondered what the big deal was. And I kicked myself for not going there sooner. It is excruciatingly difficult to tell any guy, even a "straight" guy, how sweet, fun, and intuitive fight sports really are.

Fight sports are sweet, fun, and intuitive.

That's right, and a great statement.

It took a lot of courage for me to tell my family and friends that I was boxing even at my age -- 40. Like I had to be ashamed and apologetic about it. That's how society has brainwashed guys -- most guys.

Yes, and that's what Robert Loring is talking about.

Men are being steadily separated from traditionally masculine pursuits.

And that's harming them.

I wanted to start boxing when I was in my teens.

Needless to say, I got no support for that, and I was struggling with gay issues besides.

So I didn't start karate till I was in my thirties.

And then, like NakedWrestler, "I kicked myself for not going there sooner."

If you're not doing a martial art / combat sport, that's something you need to think about.

Maybe a good New Year's resolution would be "Ck out the local dojos."

Because training can literally SAVE YOUR LIFE

In more ways than one.

Robert Loring

Re: WARRIORS!

12-31-2005

NakedWrestler wrote: "It took a lot of courage for me to tell my family and friends that I was boxing even at my age -- 40. Like I had to be ashamed and apologetic about it. That's how society has brainwashed guys -- most guys."

I think NakedWrestler's statement shows just how far society has achieved it's goal in destroying NATURAL male MASCULINITY. That goal is so far advanced that we are afraid to express our natural male aggression and even to engage in traditional masculine sports involving aggression. Society has ALREADY attached the stigma of SHAME to such sports and activities as if there is something wrong with males just being MALES and doing MALE things. Rather than enjoying things which come NATURAL to us the message of society is that we should be ashamed of everything that comes naturally to men. That's a pretty sick and twisted message I think!

There was a time in the not so distant past when males were PROUD of their masculinity and natural aggressions. In that time, males acted with HONOR and PRIDE. They were not thugs but were NOBLE WARRIORS (and there is a BIG difference BTW!). They lived by a masculine Code of Honor and were proud to be MEN. But, society has taken all this and turned it around today. Society has taken this RIGHT and turned it into wrong. And so, today we have countless numbers of males growing up ASHAMED for the mere fact that they have a cock between their legs! It's as if being born male is some kind of offense or sin. We live in a society overflowing with DISHONOR! A society in which the dishonored man is the hero instead of the HONORABLE man being the HERO.

It never stops amazing me how many males are feminized today. You know, showing their "softer side." Going through their lives trying to be something males were NOT born to be. Trying their hardest to be politically correct and not hurt anyone else's little fragile egos, God forbid. The feminization of males is the absolute WORST thing that can be done to a male in my opinion. It destroys a male psychologically, spiritually, and eventually physically.

I say men should NOT be ashamed of being born MALE! I say men should NOT be ashamed of the natural aggression within themselves! I say men have NOTHING to apologize for! I say it's time to start turning RIGHT back into RIGHT!! It's time for the male WARRIORS to start being WARRIORS AGAIN and UNapologetically!!

All noble warriors know that it is the man who must control his innate aggression and not the other way around. The true Warrior seeks to discipline himself in body, mind, and spirit. He is controlled by NOTHING but he controls that which is a part of him instead. SELF DISCIPLINE is a part of the Warrior Code. Some of the ancient peoples in the world called this self discipline "humbleness." To be humble in ancient times did NOT mean to be weak, feminized, ashamed, and sissified. To be humble did NOT mean to be a COWARD. In ancient times to be humble meant to be SELF DISCIPLINED in body, mind, and spirit.

I think it's absolutely disgusting what our feminized, PC, whinning society has done to males in general already. Me thinks society would be happy if the last remaining masculine aggressive males would bend over and become like women and allow the analists to have their way with us. Personally I would find death more pleasing than to allow one of those demons to do such a thing. For ANY MALE to be fucked up the ass is the ULTIMATE ACT OF SELF DESTRUCTION! Trying to turn any male into a feminized thing is one step away from the analist agenda and goal (ie: the ultimate destruction of natural male masculinity).

There was a time when such sports as boxing and other male contact sports were esteemed in our society. There was a time when there were clear roles for masculine men to follow and live out in their lives. In that time the natural male WARRIOR was full of PRIDE and society was even PROUD of him. But, today that is all turned around thanks to the BFD and the feminists. The male warrior used to be the HERO not the villian! The NATURAL MALE WARRIOR must become the HERO again! That starts with YOU! That's why it is so important that the warriors on this site start LIVING their warriorship and stop just thinking about or fantasizing about it. Warriorship is meant to be LIVED!

There is no doubt that modern society is going quickly down the drain and into the cesspool. The evidence is all around and plain to see. It is the NATURAL MALE WARRIOR with his natural aggressiveness and pride that will save society and turn it back around (that's YOU!) and not some mythical savior coming from the sky above us. It is the natural born WARRIOR that will once again teach young men to be MASCULINE men again instead of the feminized freaks many have already become!

DO NOT BE ASHAMED OF YOUR NATURAL GOD-GIVEN AGGRESSIVENESS! You have NOTHING to be apologetic for! BE the WARRIOR that is naturally within you! Stand up and fight back against the BFD and the feminists in our society who are trying everything they can to destroy ALL males by any means!

It is NOT a SIN to be MALE! It is NOT something to be ashamed of but it is something to BE PROUD OF!

Sir Robert

George

Re: WARRIORS!

12-31-2005

Bill, Naked Wrestler, & Robert -- excellent points in everything you guys wrote. I am totally of one mind with you on the issue of feminized men who identify as gay. This has been a major issue which I've encountered in other guys who go thru the [sometimes hellish] process of accepting their sexuality, and who have changed their personalities in a way I can only call an affect. It is a bit painful to me to see these dear friends of mine trying to "act gay," rather than just be themselves. Yet, there's nothing I can do about it -- for the time being -- except to pray that they continue that journey toward self-understanding and self-acceptance. I am convinced that if there is any integrity to their desire for these things, they will one day move beyond the artificial identity they are embracing, and rejoice in just being themselves as God created them, without pretence and without trying to conform to a twisted notion of what it means to be a gay man.

George

Bill Weintraub

Re: WARRIORS!

1-2-2006

Thanks everyone.

George says he hopes his effeminized gay male friends

will one day move beyond the artificial identity they are embracing, and rejoice in just being themselves as God created them, without pretence and without trying to conform to a twisted notion of what it means to be a gay man.

That's right.

It's an artificial identity and a "twisted notion," twisted by the heterosexist lie that men who have sex with men are women, and by the effeminist lie that it's bad to be a man.

Those are the lies and they work in tandem.

The gay guy says, I'm gay, therefore I'm a sort-of-woman; and his culture says, that's good, it's better for you to be a sort-of-woman than an actual man.

Why?

Because the BFD and the effeminists between them have managed to make man -- and warrior -- synonymous with killer.

Men are depicted as violent, aggressive, out-of-control oppressors and murderers.

The truth is quite different.

Robert:

All noble warriors know that it is the man who must control his innate aggression and not the other way around. The true Warrior seeks to discipline himself in body, mind, and spirit. He is controlled by NOTHING but he controls that which is a part of him instead. SELF DISCIPLINE is a part of the Warrior Code. Some of the ancient peoples in the world called this self discipline "humbleness." To be humble in ancient times did NOT mean to be weak, feminized, ashamed, and sissified. To be humble did NOT mean to be a COWARD. In ancient times to be humble meant to be SELF DISCIPLINED in body, mind, and spirit.

That's correct.

Warriors are taught to control their *innate* masculine aggression.

Patrick in his role as Sensei has a saying: Peace should be the way of the warrior, for he bears the cost of war.

Those aren't just pretty words.

They're based on Patrick's experience, of many fights, that any time you're in a fight, even if you win, you pay a price.

For example, in his fight with Paco, although he won, and it was a terrific experience in its own right, Patrick suffered a hearing loss in his left ear.

A permanent hearing loss.

So men raised in a warrior tradition are taught both how to fight, and to avoid a fight, to practice self-discipline and self-control and to fight only when unavoidable.

That's a far cry from the out-of-control oppressor and aggressor male depicted in BFD and feminist propaganda.

It's a bit mysterious as to how the feminists et alia have managed to sell this piece of goods to the wider world, since it's a truism of warrior life and warrior literature that if the warrior loses control, he suffers.

For example, in the Iliad, which is widely regarded as both the first and the best war story in the world, Achilles, the hero, gets angry at the warlord Agamemnon, and pulls himself and his forces out of the struggle.

As a consequence, the Trojans almost over-run the Greek camp, and Achilles' lover, Patroclus, throws himself into the battle and is killed.

The lesson is clear: your anger can cost you the life of the one you most love.

That's the theme of the epic, and it's in the very first line: "Sing Goddess, the wrath of Achilles."

That's what the Iliad is about: Achilles' anger, and the disastrous effect it had on his life.

For more than a thousand years, the Iliad functioned as the Bible of the Greek world.

Every Greek kid knew the story, and many had memorized long sections of it.

And its core lesson is -- the warrior must keep control -- of himself.

Robert:

There was a time when such sports as boxing and other male contact sports were esteemed in our society. There was a time when there were clear roles for masculine men to follow and live out in their lives. In that time the natural male WARRIOR was full of PRIDE and society was even PROUD of him. But, today that is all turned around thanks to the BFD and the feminists. The male warrior used to be the HERO not the villian! The NATURAL MALE WARRIOR must become the HERO again! That starts with YOU! That's why it is so important that the warriors on this site start LIVING their warriorship and stop just thinking about or fantasizing about it. Warriorship is meant to be LIVED!

Robert is right:

The NATURAL MALE WARRIOR must become the HERO again! That starts with YOU! That's why it is so important that the warriors on this site start LIVING their warriorship and stop just thinking about or fantasizing about it. Warriorship is meant to be LIVED!

Warriorship is meant to be LIVED!

That's right.

Now, I keep pushing martial arts.

As the naked guy says, it's hard even to get straight guys to do martial arts or some other combat sport.

But martial arts is like anything else.

If you practice, you'll get better.

If you have talent, you'll get better faster.

But you don't need talent to obtain the benefit of the training.

You don't have to be Jackie Chan or Bruce Lee -- or NakedWrestler or Sensei Patrick.

95% of the people in the average dojo don't have a family background in martial arts or killer-karate-genes.

They still benefit *enormously* from the training.

That's the whole point.

Karate was the creation of Okinawan peasants.

Who needed a fighting skill that ANYONE could learn.

So: There's NO REASON not to train.

If you put in three nights a week at a gym -- do two of those at a dojo or fight school instead.

If you're vegging in front of the TV or computer -- go train instead.

DO NOT BE ASHAMED OF YOUR NATURAL GOD-GIVEN AGGRESSIVENESS! You have NOTHING to be apologetic for! BE the WARRIOR that is naturally within you! Stand up and fight back against the BFD and the feminists in our society who are trying everything they can to destroy ALL males by any means!

It is NOT a SIN to be MALE! It is NOT something to be ashamed of but it is something to BE PROUD OF!

Right.

George talks of his friends who reject themselves "as God created them" -- as though it were a sin to be male.

It's not.

I think of my masculinity as a gift.

Just as I think of my love of other men as a gift.

To me these are gifts from God.

It's what Bill Schuler says: his manhood is "the greatest gift," after life and salvation through Christ.

But however you think of your manhood as coming to you -- whether through God or genetics or however -- why would you throw away something so precious as that?

Throw it away to try to be something you can never be -- a pseudo-woman, a fake female.

It's so beautiful to be a man.

And it's free -- it's a gift.

Again Robert:

Warriorship is meant to be LIVED!

Part of that is training in a martial art.

Part of it is coming out.

As a gay man.

As a biseuxal man.

Coming out as a man who loves men.

And part of it is supporting the Alliance.

Posting on this board.

Donating.

Telling other guys.

At this point most of you are not men -- not in the classic sense of vir - virilis -- virtus.

You're living a sort of half-life.

I wonder how many of you have gone to see Brokeback.

You certainly have NOT been donating the money to us.

Probaby most of you have gone.

$20 or $30 or more into that analist sinkhole.

If one thousand of you have done that, that's thirty THOUSAND dollars.

$30,000 to the buttboyz.

Brilliant.

If ten thousand of the men who use this site go to Brokeback -- and ten thousand is nothing -- that's $300,000.

Three HUNDRED THOUSAND dollars.

Imagine what we could do with such a sum.

Instead you're giving it to people who are doing everything in their power to destroy your lives.

Dumb.

Dumb and self-destructive.

Yet if I appended a certain epithet to this behavior, you'd think yourselves ill-used.

It is YOU who are using yourselves ill.

Nor have you bothered to match those funds with a donation to the Alliance.

Not one penny to the Alliance.

So what are you doing?

Besides jerking off?

NakedWrestler doesn't just go to fight school.

He tells every man he can about Frot and the Alliance.

George too talks to his friends about Frot.

And he donates.

The rest of you do neither.

The only reason we were online in December is that Oscar Vallejo, who lives in Mexico and who, last time we spoke, was working as a waiter, gave us a big donation in November.

People in Mexico don't make near the money that people in America do.

So what's the matter with you guys?

Robert puts a lot of time and energy into trying to convey to you what's happened to you and what the solution is.

And you do nothing.

Soon your life will be over and what will you have done?

Gone to the movies and jerked off.

Been a consumer, and a consumer of someone else's idea -- a fucked-up idea -- of what your life is.

You can do a lot better than that.

But YOU have to do it.

Your liberation can only be the work of your hands.

SAVE YOUR LIFE

Bill Weintraub

Re: WARRIORS!

1-6-2006

I want to come back to this question of "a twisted notion of what it means to be a gay man."

George says he hopes his effeminized gay male friends

will one day move beyond the artificial identity they are embracing, and rejoice in just being themselves as God created them, without pretence and without trying to conform to a twisted notion of what it means to be a gay man.

[emphasis mine]

A TWISTED notion.

George is correct.

This nonsense has been going on for years.

In the early 80s, my late lover asked, "Who among us does not know men who are forever marred and scarred for being gay?"

Around the same time, a guy named David Winnie Hayes said, in a letter to the NYC gay paper that my late lover then edited, that

The Sacred Band of Thebes was not known for casseroles and folded napkins nor did the priests of Apollo create a leper colony of sexually transmitted diseases... It is difficult to know at this time what it might mean to be gay. We have been bent out of shape by centuries of persecution and our true profile is only beginning to re-emerge. This process is one of the great adventures of our time and we are all invited to participate in it - to be responsible to it and to each other.

"to be responsible to it and to each other"

He was talking about AIDS.

And in my posts on this board, like "Depraved Bitches" and "Many People with Drug-Resistant HIV Having Unprotected "Sex" -- you can see just how RESPONSIBLE gay men are being.

It turns my stomach.

And it should yours.

And you need to remember that their irresponsiblity, in this 25th year of the epidemic, is being SUPPORTED by your community institutions, like SF AIDS Foundation and AIDS Committee Toronto -- and community leaders like Marcus Conant.

So: I often use this passage from Hayes because he's right.

The guys in the Sacred Band didn't spend all day working on their casseroles.

They were WARRIORS.

That's what they were.

I'm not making that up.

Not necessary.

Here's some more about them, which you can read for yourself in Plutarch:

They wrestled -- nude -- daily -- at their city's palestra.

Were they philosophers?

I don't know about each and every one, but their leader when they marched through Laconia freeing the slaves was a philosopher named Epaminondas.

His best bud, Pelopidas, was the commander of the Sacred Band.

Were they lovers?

Almost certainly, but it's not said outright.

Here's Plutarch on the Theban heroes Pelopidas, 410?-364 BC, Epaminondas 410-362 BC, and the Sacred Band of Thebes -- all from The Lives of the Noble Grecians and Romans in the Dryden translation:

Pelopidas came from a wealthy family; his great friend, Epaminondas, was poor: he "made his familiar and hereditary poverty more light and easy by his philosophy and single life." Pelopidas could never persuade Epaminondas "to be a sharer in his wealth. He, however, stepped down into his [Epaminondas'] poverty, and took pleasure in the same poor attire, spare diet, unwearied endurance of hardships, and unshrinking boldness in war." [reminiscent, guys, of T.E. Lawrence]

"Both seemed equally fitted by nature for all sorts of excellence; but bodily exercises chiefly delighted Pelopidas, learning Epaminondas; and the one spent his spare hours in hunting and the palaestra [wrestling school], the other in hearing lectures or philosophising."

They were together in every battle, and when it appeared Pelopidas had been slain, Epaminondas "advanced to defend his arms and body, and singly fought a multitude, resolving rather to die than forsake his helpless Pelopidas."

Shortly thereafter the Spartans staged a coup, and put an oligarchy into power at Thebes. Pelopidas had to flee, but "Epaminondas stayed at home, being not much looked after, as one whom philosophy had made inactive and poverty incapable."

[Plutarch also notes that the Spartans cashiered the officer who had engineered the coup, but still kept a Spartan garrison in the Kadmea (the Theban citadel), "which made all Greece wonder at their inconsistency, since they punished the doer, but approved the deed."]

Meanwhile, Pelopidas, in exile in Athens, plotted the overthrow of the Theban oligarchs, while "Epaminondas had already inflamed the youths. For, in their exercises, he had encouraged them to challenge and wrestle with the Spartans; and again, when he saw them puffed up with victory and success, sharply told them it was the greater shame to be such cowards as to serve those whom in strength they so much excelled."

So Pelopidas and Epaminondas were functioning as a team, even separated by exile.

Eventually they threw the Spartans and their Theban allies out of Thebes.

Plutarch gives a long description of the Sacred Band, and how Pelopidas was responsible for giving it a central place in the Theban line.

And then those same farmboy-citizen-soldiers who had beat the Spartans in wrestling, broke the Spartan line at the battle of Leuctra and ended the Spartan hegemony in Greece.

That's all historical fact.

The Sacred Band of Thebes were warriors.

And wrestlers.

They did not occupy themselves with casseroles or interior design.

Nor were they promiscuous, nor were they doing anal.

How do we know?

For one thing, because they say so -- the Greeks left more literary and graphic evidence of their homosex than any other people.

But for another -- there's no significant STD among them.

The Sacred Band died in battle -- not of AIDS or hepatitis.

Oh, you'll say, but HIV wasn't around then.

Actually, we don't know that.

What we do know is that the anus was every bit as vulnerable in ancient Greece as it is in contemporary America.

There's NO way to do anal safely.

And in a military detachment like the Sacred Band, if they'd been promiscuous and into anal, an STI would have run through them like wildfire.

LIKE WILDFIRE.

Didn't happen, did it?

"nor did the priests of Apollo create a leper colony of sexually transmitted diseases..."

Many years after Pelopidas and Epaminondas themselves had died, a different generation of the Sacred Band of Thebes was wiped out to a man fighting Alexander the Great's father, Philip II, at Chaeronea (338 BC).

Philip II, had he not been the father of Alexander the Great, would be remembered as one of the greatest generals of antiquity.

But his achievements have been eclipsed by his son's.

Philip had a very active sex life with men -- a number of male lovers, one of whom he jilted and who later assassinated him.

Here's Plutarch, writing about 450 years later, but who had access to sources which have since been lost, speaking of the Sacred Band and Philip:

It is a tradition likewise that Iolaus, who assisted Hercules in his labors and fought at his side, was beloved of him [Hercules]; and Aristotle observes that, even in his time, [Theban] lovers plighted their faith at Iolaus' tomb. It is likely, therefore, that this band was called sacred on this account, as Plato calls a lover a divine friend. It is stated that it was never beaten till the battle at Chaeronea; and when Philip, after the fight, took a view of the slain, and came to the place where the three hundred who fought his phalanx lay dead together, he wondered, and understanding that it was the band of lovers, he shed tears and said, "Perish any man who suspects that these men either did or suffered anything that was base."

"Did or suffered anything that was base."

Philip's meaning, as a man who loved men, is plain:

To do that which is base is to fuck a man.

To suffer that which is base is to get fucked.

These guys were not doing anal, and the proof to Philip was their valor at Chaeronea.

Contemporary gay men who think that being "queer" and "femme" and "multipartnered" and taking it up the butt is liberated -- are IDIOTS.

They're engaged in SELF-OPPRESSION.

And behavior which is literally deadly.

They are the ENEMIES OF LIBERATION.

Their own.

And YOURS.

When are you going to figure that out?

In another 25 years?

Analism -- anal penetration, promiscuity, AND EFFEMINACY -- is your ENEMY.

I know -- effeminacy seems harmless.

That's the whole idea.

"I'm effeminate -- I can't hurt you."

But effeminacy is very damaging.

Anal, promiscuity, and effeminacy are the three behaviors which constitute analism.

They have to go.

And there's no reason for them to stay.