Bill Weintraub

Re: Brother to Brother

12-20-2002

thank you Mike

i want to say something about the word "intercourse," which Mike used as a synonym for anal penetration

years ago, in a moment of passion, a boyfriend looked deep in my eyes and whispered, Bill, i wanna have your baby

he was, of course, asking me to fuck him, but he was sincere in what he said -- he was in love with me, or thought he was, and he was thinking in soap opera and soap bubble terms

though i was flattered, i wasn't turned on by his attempt to rewrite the laws of biology, let alone change his gender, and i told him, gently, that what he wanted wasn't possible

and, needless to say, our relationship didn't last

but i've often thought of that moment as an example of the at once silly but tragic ways in which gay men confuse anal penetration and hetero intercourse

now, to be fair, it is true that, according to at least Webster's, the words "anal" and "oral" can be attached to the word "intercourse"

but it's also the case that in our society, when most people speak of intercourse, they're referring to the heterosexual act of biological mating: penile-vaginal sex

in that sense, anal penetration is not and can never be intercourse

and the fact that many gay men mistakenly think of anal as intercourse only proves what i've always contended: that gay men pursue anal because it mimics penile-vaginal sex, and provides roles which appear to fit the majority, heterosexual model

yet the truth is that the anus can never be a vagina, just as a man can never be a woman

he can be a "bottom" -- that is, a pseudo-woman -- but not a true woman: he doesn't have a vagina, he doesn't have ovaries, he doesn't have a womb, and he can't bear anybody's baby

that's why so many men -- including gay guys into frot and str8 guys -- find anal so offensive -- because it offends, on a literally visceral level, both masculinity and femininity

and that's also why the idea of anal as intercourse is self-defeating and a non-starter

so if anal penetration's not intercourse, what is it?

my lover Patrick defines anal as "jackin off in a hole full of shit," and he's right -- that's all it is

using another man's rectum for a sperm receptacle

it's not intercourse, it's not genital-genital sex, and no matter how they cut it, neither tops nor bottoms are any closer to being heterosexuals for their pains

so: a man can mate genitally with a woman (vaginally), and he can mate genitally with another man (phallically)

the latter -- whether you call it cock2cock, dick2dick, frot, or rubbin cocks -- is phallic mating

and, as Don Frazer says, it's beautiful, natural, and totally male

Jess

Re: Brother to Brother

12-21-2002

I have read this post over and over several times. for whatever reason and it keep stirring up a question for me. When a brother and a brother have sex, they call it incest. (sorry to use the word) But as has been brought up, most people think of sex as in penetration. And with frottage there is no penetration. So is frottage with ones brother really incest?? What do you guys think?

Personally I see nothing wrong with brothers doing as they please. In some ways I wish I had such an encounter in my life.

Bill Weintraub

Re: Brother to Brother

12-22-2002

hi jess

first of all, as i just said at some length, no matter what some so-called gay men may think, Frot is sex, and the best kind of sex, genital-genital sex

just like heterosexual intercourse

Frot is the fullest, hottest, and most satisfying sex two men can have

never let anybody tell you any different

and never fail to challenge a statement to the contrary

that's the only way you'll survive

now, regarding incest:

incest is defined by Webster's as "sexual intercourse between persons so closely related they are forbidden by law to marry"

so incest is defined in terms of marriage and biological mating and forbidden (presumably) because of the genetic dangers to children of incestuous unions

brothers engaged in frot are in no danger of either marrying or having kids

so whatever people may call it, frot between brothers is, in the scheme of things, innocent

but that doesn't mean it won't have emotional repercussions

as we can see from this board, frot between brothers, though not universal, is pretty common

but how the brothers experience that sex emotionally, including how they catagorize it, depends upon other factors in their relationship

the fullest discussion of such a relationship on our site is GentleWarrior Brad's post in Warriors Speak titled Learning to be a Cockrub Warrior.

it's a brutal story, but well worth reading

cause Brad's a good example of why

Steve

Re: Brother to Brother

1-11-2003

My name is Steve, I live in No. Cal. I just stumbled onto this site and am totally turned on because I too am gay but have had my fill of the anal thing. Literally and figuratively. Since the onset of HIV, I've realized that playing safe was not only well, safe, but that it was really the type of sex I always wanted. This "cock-rubbing" thing is something I've really gotten into in the last two years and now do all sorts of cock games with my naked buds and tell em up front, it ain't going anal or I'm outta here.

By the way, I hate to sound ignorant, but trust you won't laugh and just maybe bring me up to speed on a few things. What is FROT? I guess I should read the material more, but I've been busy stroking on my rod while I've run around the web site saying, "holy fuck, is this ME or what?"

I also did some cock rubbing with my older brother. And with several of the neighbor boys on the block. At that age, we all seemed to be whackin the dong pretty often and very openly. Too bad, boys grow into men and lose that free and "do it if it feels good" attitude especially if it's a male-male experience.

I appreciate any info you can send. I'll continue to explore the site and see where it goes. Thanks for your time.

Bill Weintraub

Re: Brother to Brother

1-11-2003

hey Steve

it's great you've been tellin your budz "no anal" -- way to go!!!

i'm bill weintraub, the creator and webmaster of The Man2Man Alliance, Heroic Homosex, Cockrub Warriors, Heroes, and Frot Club

i also coined the term "frot" -- frot is simply short for "frottage," the word that's commonly been used in the past for various forms of sexual rubbing

but on our sites, frot and frottage refer to male *genital-genital* sex only: cockrubbing, dick2dick, and cock2cock

my original term was cockrubbing, but African-American men told me that many of them don't like the word "cock," and use the word "dick" instead

that's why i coined the term "frot" -- so that we'd have a race-neutral word for what we love to do

and i also wrote an article titled What's Hot About Frot to spread the word about the wonders of cock2cock and dick2dick

if you want more info, some articles you might read are Frot: The Next Sexual Revolution and Hyacinthine Love

also -- i really encourage you to read more deeply on the Personal Stories board and in the archived Personal Stories in Warriors Speak

you'll see that you have a lot in common with other guys on the site

and also you'll see that we have a lot of str8-identified men on the site, including my husband Patrick, who up till a few months ago had been sexually exclusively str8, despite having had cock2cock fantasies all his life

so we try to be inclusive on the site, racially and in terms of sexual self-identity

we're all men, and we're all into being men, being masculine and doing cock2cock/dick2dick with the men we love

we also have a strong pro-monogamy stance on the site

we feel that the old gay culture of anal promiscuity and effeminacy has got to go

our goal is to change the culture of men who have sex with men away from anal promiscuity and effeminacy and toward phallic fidelity and masculinity

so while you're right that boys grow into men -- even some gay boys have been known to make it -- one of our principal goals on the site is to show those men that there's a way they can relate emotionally and physically to other men which is safe, hot, and totally masculine

and that whether gay or straight, they can, like you, recapture the dreams of their youth

Steve

Re: Brother to Brother

1-11-2003

Hi Bill,

Thanks so much for taking the time to respond to my post yesterday. I now know what frot is and realize that it has been totally me all of my life. That's exactly how I wanted my relationships with men to be. I was pushed into getting butt-fucked, then into believing I really liked it. Only did it to please the other guy and now I know he probably would have rather had the all-body cock2cock pleasures that this group is about.

I have been reading more and more of your site and look forward to adding some of my own stories soon. Its just great to meet men who are like you and me and not have to to through the bullshit of giving a new friend the run-down of how I feel, etc.

I have two good cock warrior buds here, both married with kids, and they get totally into ball2ball, cock2cock games with me. They love their wives and children but will consider this type of manly cock contact for the completeness of their lives, not just for the quick sex aspect.

And, of course, they would never think of doing anything anal and that's why they trust me to meet with even though I am gay and live openly as such.

Bill Weintraub

Re: Brother to Brother

1-11-2003

hey Steve

great post!!! -- thanks a lot

you know guys, more and more men are talking on the site about being straight and having a cock2cock bud, or being gay and finding partners among straight-identified men

and now i have a lover who's a "str8 guy"

if you'd told me a year ago that i'd have a str8 lover, i'd have laughed

but the culture is changing, and we're helping change it

when those of us who are gay, however, find ourselves interacting with str8 guys, it's important that we do so respectfully

too many gay men are cynical and predatory toward straight men -- the gay attitude is that if a man has same-sex feelings, he's not really straight -- he's some sort of closeted queer

that's not true

we need to recognize that most straight-identified men are into women as fervently as exlusively-gay men are into other guys

but that a straight-identified guy almost certainly has very powerful same-sex feelings too

he's concealing those feelings -- and as a man who genuinely likes women it's easy for him to conceal those feelings -- because of homophobia within straight culture

and because of the distaste most str8 men very sensibly have for anal and effeminacy

so when we meet up with str8-identified guys -- either on this site or in real life -- it's important that we don't disrespect their love of women -- just as we wouldn't like it if they disrespected our love of men

but understand, as Steve does, that their erotic feelings for both women and men are genuine

many of the gay men on the site have complained about the difficulty in finding partners into frot

that can change -- and, like i said, it already is changing -- but the extent of the change will depend upon our success in building and *telling the world about* a new culture among men who have sex with men

a culture which rejects anal and effeminacy, and honors phallus-to-phallus and masculinity

Related article:

About Promiscuity, Str8 guys, Boytoys, and Men Who Love Men

Robert Loring

Re: Brother to Brother

1-12-2003

Hi Steve

You wrote:

"Too bad, boys grow into men and lose that free and "do it if it feels good" attitude especially if it's a male-male experience. "

I agree with you in that it is too bad that we lose this freedom to be natural. As we grow up we are conditioned into what society tells us a "man" is or, in the gay subculture, what being "gay" is (thanks to the BFD which dominates the gay community). As a result, we lose much of our naturalness and we stop doing those things like cockrub which feel natural and which create bonds between males. I personally think that it would do all men well to go back and recapture that sense of naturalness, wonder, and imagination that we had as boys.

Sadly, we live in a society that is overflowing with conditioning and in one that has taken RIGHT and made it WRONG and visa versa. Cockrub is a natural male activity and falling in love with another man while being equals has, historically, never been wrong. A quick look at history (including that which is presented on this site) reveals that our modern society with its screwed up sense of "naturalness" is the EXCEPTION and NOT the rule.

Modern society thinks that being a man is being "macho" and never giving compassion nor engaging in sexual activity with another man is "true manhood". Yet, it is not and never has been True Manhood. In fact, if anything machoism is Fake Manhood. Macho men wear a mask which hides their own insecurity with their manhood. In the gay community our manhood is stolen out from under us and depersonalization along with disempowerment are the results. In frot our manhood is restored and we become empowered as we learn to just simply be Men who are natural, compassionate, and men who have learned to recapture all those things we once had and valued as boys. Exiting the gay community and turning to frot is a homecoming to what we (all men) really are naturally.

Sir Robert

Also by Robert Loring:

We ARE Warriors

Brothers of the Heart

A Case of Rape

The Ultimate Defeat

A Call to All True WARRIORS!!

A Man's Word & Bond

Brotherhood

Death of a Frot Brother

Finally A Home

Go Shirtless: In support of a brother!!

Jesus and the Truth

Straight8 Acting??

Warrior Christendom

The Warrior Ethos

Warriors and Freedom

The Warrior God

Plus Robert has posted replies in many message threads, such as Nude Combat.

One more good reason to read every post.