Bill Weintraub

Re: Nude Combat

4-8-2002

hey greg

as usual, an insightful and important post from you

one of the things i find most beautiful in your posts is your relationship to your inner warrior, your acknowledgment that your warrior exists and is a vital part of your being

so let's talk about nudity and combat

i first started to explore that issue when the club was fairly young, and i'd get email from guys saying "the thought of fighting and sometimes fighting itself turns me on -- am i sick?"

see, for example, Boyhood Brawling, or Wrestling and Rubbing.

so i started thinking about that -- because i get turned on by certain types of fighting as well -- not all -- but some, usually ritualized like boxing or wrestling

and i started looking at the Greeks, who so often depict their warriors fighting nude

now as i said, historians have tended to dismiss that nudity as an artistic convention

yet we know that other European peoples closely related to the Greeks, like the Celts and Picts, and the Teutons on occasion, fought nude, and no one disputes that

and the fact is that many non-European primitive peoples fight nude or with very minimal covering of the genitals

furthermore, the Greeks did all of their athletic training and contesting nude -- again, no one doubts that

but think about it -- that's really alien to us -- can you imagine running a marathon nude? mabye ... but what about boxing nude? or doing the Pankration -- a combo of boxing, kick boxing, and wrestling, with almost no blows barred -- nude?

not erotic boxing, not erotic pankration or some UFC jerkoff fantasy, but real fighting in which you're trying to disable and defeat your opponent -- and he you -- by landing punishing, brutal, blows

sounds crazy to do that nude

similarly, the Greeks trained for warfare nude -- once again, no one doubts that -- but would you do it? -- grab an M-16 and go crawling through foxholes with live ammunition being fired over your head -- nude??

or do bayonet practice -- nude??

or hunt a lion or a stag -- armed only with a sword or an axe or javelin -- nude??

the answer is no -- of course not

but the Greeks did --

because the Greeks were a different, non-Christian, culture, with a very different sense of the body, and of war, and of what might happen between two men

to the Greeks, the male contest -- one man's strenuous physical struggle to overcome another -- was core to almost everything they did

they were very competitive

theban hoplite this Osprey artist's reconstruction is based upon a vase painting

and hoplite warfare, though it was a group activity, functioned in much the same way -- except in the case of hoplite warfare, it was one city's or, put better, one phalanx's struggle to overcome another

so i believe that in the first two centuries of hoplite warfare -- when it was most ritualized -- (from roughly 650 BCE to 450 BCE -- that is, before the Peloponessian War) -- they often fought nude -- displaying their genitals to their enemies

just as they did in athletics -- not only showed their cock and balls to their opponents, but in wrestling, had him feel them as well

because the genitals mattered -- they were part of the whole man -- and therefore they were part of the man's battle too

and, in point of fact, the most common wounds to hoplites, in the archaic and early classical eras, were wounds to the groin and testicles -- what we would expect if those areas were unprotected and vulnerable to an underhand spear thrust

furthermore, we need to understand what actually happened in a hoplite battle

basically, the two sides drew up opposite each other, usually in equal ranks -- let's say 20 men abreast, that is standing shoulder to shoulder

in back of each of them would be an equal line, usually to a minimal depth of eight men -- what was called eight "shields"

but you might have a phalanx that was 20 or 30 shields deep

when the battle started, the opposing lines ran at each other -- not far, because their equipment was heavy and running was exhausting -- and the front lines collided shield to shield, face-to-face, while stabbing at each other with their spears

once that collision had taken place, what followed was a period of pushing -- somewhat like a football scrum -- in which the men behind the front lines pushed their shields into the backs of the men in front of them

the idea was to knock over, trample, and stab the opposing soldiers

what happened, very frequently, was that spears were shattered early in the battle, and shields themselves often buckled or cracked

and though the men might still have swords, there was little room for swordplay

instead, what most often happened was that the men in the front ranks tried to wrestle each other to the ground -- that's one of many reasons that the Greeks valued wrestling and put it at the center of their athletic culture

and that's part of the reason the Boeotians were able to crash through the Spartan line at Leuctra in 371 BCE -- they were big men, mostly farmers, who were superb wrestlers

now here's an interesting bit for us guys into FROT

the Spartans practiced attacking the opposing line in a scrum by having a line of soldiers push against a stout tree, usually an oak

their slang expression for that wasn't fucking the tree -- which you might expect -- but grinding the tree -- just like we talk about in frot

(far-fetched? no -- the 8th century Carolingian monk Hincmar of Rheims complains about monks rubbing or grinding against each other -- the Latin word he uses is attiru, which, in its past participle, attrire, is the source of our word "attrition" -- wearing away by grinding)

and of course the Spartans practiced that grinding with shields and helmets and spears and greaves, but otherwise nude

so Greek athletics and Greek warfare were intimately connected -- men trained for both nude, they competed in the first nude, and i have no doubt they frequently fought nude as well

and that was very important to them Greg -- one of the biggest problems Alexander the Great faced when he tried to unite Greeks and Persians was about clothes -- the Persians thought public nudity was shameful -- the Greeks thought wearing clothes was a sign of barbaric effeminacy

to the Greeks, the civilized man was, often, nude in the sight of his fellows -- not just socially, but in competitive situations as well

that's why we have so many scenes of the Greeks in hunting and war nude -- scenes that originated not just with Greek artists, but with Persian artists as well

now, Greg, you say that for you, "love and exposing the genitals ... belongs together"

and that's true for me too

but we need to recognize that for other peoples, love and exposing the genitals did not always go together

when a Greek wrestled or boxed his opponent nude -- which is how they always did it -- that was not an expression of love -- the Greek wanted to win, just like any other Westerner -- he was very competitive

but it was an expression of his masculinity

and not just for men -- in Sparta, women were encouraged to train and compete nude as well

so my point is that when men in our culture have a desire to fight nude -- when they feel both aggressive and erotic -- which was at the core of many of my adolescent fantasies about sex --

(in those fantasies, as i described in THE FIGHT, a nude battle would lead to a merging of warriors -- as happened for Gilgamesh and Enkidu -- a passage through rage to love)

when you feel that, you can recognize that warriors in the past had something of the same feelings -- they must have

that their manhood was involved in their fighting

and that the gap between fighting and loving was not so great

because these were pre-Christian people without a philosophy of turning the other cheek, or suppressing their sexuality

now -- that doesn't mean that in a real fight -- let's say in a street fight or against an armed criminal (like i describe in Kevin!) -- i would be turned on -- like you, i'd be fighting for survival and the physical incapacitating or death of my foe

and i'd be protecting my genitals, not exposing them

but i recognize that the aggressive energies i sometimes feel around sex and the desire for a sexual combat, are natural, and have historical and cross-cultural correlatives

and that for me is the significance of nude combat, and the reason i wrote the series

too often, men into frot and cock combat are told that we're weird -- cause instead of wanting to penetrate another man, we want to rub cocks -- either sensuously, or combatively, or both

my point is that the desire to rub cocks -- be it sensual or combative -- is normal and natural, and can be seen in warrior cultures which celebrated both frot and nudity in competition and combat -- athletics and war

and that finally, if there does indeed exist such a thing, as I've posited, as natural male sex aggression -- we need to recognize the degree to which cock combat sports like sex wrestling permit a safe expression of that aggression and a celebratory release of semen at its conclusion

so -- Greg -- please understand -- i don't want you to change your ideas about sex, love, and hate

and, i want to be clear, if i hated someone, i wouldn't want to have cock combat with him -- not in the least

but i am saying that one can experience feelings around sex and aggression that are outside the normal mode for gay and bi men --

"normal" in gay male culture is i "love" you, and therefore i'm going to penetrate and dominate you, and that's a "loving" act

instead we say, i love you, and i want to rub cocks with you and maybe struggle or fight with you too, but always as an equal, nude and cocktocock, and that's a truly loving act

an expression of warrior love

BUT -- for me, that expression is not meant to occur twice a week with five different partners -- absolutely not

like any act of love between warriors, it's momentous and has to be treated that way -- as something sacred, a sacred encounter between two equally noble beings

i salute you Greg, my fellow warrior

Robert Loring

Re: Nude Combat

3-11-2003

I was once told that I was not "gay" by a gay male friend of mine. When I asked what he meant he proceeded to tell me that he did not think I was really "gay" because I had "too much aggression" within my behavior, words, thoughts, etc. I did not take his comments as offensive and, in fact, I took them to be LIBERATING because I did not want to identify myself with the BFD of the analists anyway! I think some of his comment came from the fact that I kept refusing to engage in anal sex with him (which I think is very disgusting).

Anyway, his comment to me was liberating as he as a spokesman for the BFD of the analist community was telling me I was not one of "them". I celebrated his comment but then I began to wonder "if I'm not gay like them, then what am I ?". Of course I had the hetrosexual community telling me, on the other hand, that I was not one of "them" either!

This website has greatly helped me to establish my self identity as a Homosex Warrior and Brother because that IS what I am. In a way this site is a life boat come along just in the nick of time. It was a great relief to find other Homosex Warrior Brothers like myself and this quickly tore down my feelings of being "alone" or "weird". For this I thank the creators and contributors on this site.

Heroic Homosex EMPOWERS and this is what I am trying to say. Especially when you discover what you are (a CR Warrior) and what you are not. This site EMPOWERS MEN, honors, and helps us to honor our own MASCULINITY. The 3rd Way....the Warrior Way...is who I am. The Warrior Way has HONOR. The analist way DISEMPOWERS and has NO honor! In fact, the way of the BFD of the analist actually destroys human life along with manhood. The BFD beats you down and tries to force you into being one of "them" and you must engage in anal or you are not really "gay". Bullcrap!!

I say it is time for the BFD of the analist to end and end now! It dishonors human life and it disempowers a man. It beats a man down into submission under their ruthless dictatorship and it robs him of his masculinity and sense of self. I thank the God Spirit my friend told me what he did because it most likely saved me from becoming a part of the BFD and saved my health, mind, and soul.

I absolutely agree that we need to establish our own institutions for Heroic Homosex Warriors and this site is one of those already established institutions of the Warrior Way. We need to establish MORE of our own institutions which will speak to our own SPIRITUAL NEEDS because the homophobic and analist ones are NOT speaking to our spiritual needs. We are a group...a class...a race...unto our own, so to speak. I fully intend to be a part of this building which will meet our own kinds spiritual needs. Somewhere Bill wrote to get involved and just don't talk about our battle against the BFD but actually ENGAGE in the battle. This IS what each of us MUST do...GET INVOLVED AND STAY INVOLVED in our battle, our quest to overthrow the BFD that is KILLING men's lives LITERALLY!! No one of us fights against the BFD alone and this must be remembered. We are Heroic Homosex Warrior Brothers who have found each other here and like the ancient Hoplite Warriors of old we must stand side by side, nude by nude, C2C, as ONE mighty and invincible army! It's time to change the world MEN!

For myself, I envision this website as a sacred temple of C2C Warriors. A place of SANCTUARY where I can come and commune and rejoice with by brothers. This is a holy and sacred place for us...this is our Temple of the Warriors in which we can come to find brotherhood, inspiration, strength, honor, self esteem, self identity, and most especially LOVE (and I see a whole lot of brother warrior love on this site!).

Also, regarding nature YES we ARE the ones with deep bonds to each other and with deep bonds to Mother Nature and we do not fight against our own inner warrior nature wasting our time trying to be something we are NOT. As has been said, "Warriors NEVER give up" and we must not give up but must continue strong until VICTORY is achieved (and it will be achieved).

OK, so I've ranted enough for now...lol

Sir Robert

Also by Robert Loring:

We ARE Warriors

Brothers of the Heart

A Case of Rape

The Ultimate Defeat

The Warrior God

Also by Warrior Jedi

The Age of Warriors

REBIRTH

My GAY Identity Crisis

Soul Love